jthread said:

"Eggs Zachtly" wrote in message
...
jthread said:


[...]

In some cases it's best to leave the roots in place
as they keep the seeds from germinating.

Huh?

[rest snipped]

Read the story about Albuquerque in the post. As opposed to hoeing the
weeds. Or even pulling them. The ground is disturbed and gives a place for
seeds to get in and germinate. Where mowing them leaves the ground
undisturbed.

That is *not* what you stated above. You said the roots keep the seeds from
germinating.

--

Eggs

After heat killed bad germs, where do they go? Obviously not in heaven,
since they've been bad. Surely then can't go to hell, for the heat would
kill them again(?)...

On Nov 3, 11:13 am, "jthread" wrote:
wrote in message

ups.com...





On Nov 2, 2:53 pm, "jthread" wrote:
wrote in message

...
im not pushing this but found it interesting
--------------------------------------- 1 litre (U.S.=1
quart) of boiling water (hot tap water will also work but not
quite as well)
5 tablespoons vinegar
6 tablespoons salt (regular table salt)
1 teaspoon lemon juice
2 tablespoons dishwasher(machine) detergent
to make a gallon multiply by 4
______________________________________________
Explanations
Natural Weed Killers are simple substances with a direct and obvious
action. They destroy plant life for a short period. They are substances
encountered naturally but in small quantities. Their presence is
well-known and normally not harmful. But when applied in larger doses
the results are usually obvious in a very short time.
As always these methods need due caution. But they act at the point they
are used. After treatment their damaging effect is dissipated.
Artificial Weed Killers (Herbicides)
These are more complex 'man-made' materials with indirect and subtle
activity. They have no natural occurrence. They effect the biochemical
processes of growing plants from within. Examples of these are 2 4 D,
Atrazine, Glyphosate, Clopyralid. They may be described as organic by
chemists, but are banned in organic gardening.
As they are not produced naturally, organisms are not adapted to their
presence and we do not know the full effects of releasing them into the
environment. They can work in tiny quantities.
Many of these complex herbicides take time to act and likewise in nature
their ill effects may not be immediately obvious. The chemical
interactions are complex. It is impossible to design a thorough
investigation cheaply, if at all. Scientists like to do specific
experiments on one process at a time, but this approach only scrapes the
surface. Sometimes the inactive components of a weed killer formulation
(e.g. surfactants) pose more problems than the weed killer itself.
Are we to study the effect on thousands of chemical processes and their
interactions? Should we turn the whole earth into a laboratory? No, but
especially not when there is a better solution.
___________________________________________
So let's take a look at the performance of Natural Weed Killers.
Acid Weed Killers
ACETIC ACID
Vinegar is made of Acetic Acid along with other weak organic acids. It
has become a popular 'cottage garden' alternative for those who dislike
modern herbicides. It works by disrupting membranes and causing leakage
of plant cells. The damage to plants appears rapidly and even quicker on
hot days.
Household Vinegar contains 5% acetic acid which may not be strong
enough; 15-20% acetic acid solutions are more effective. Take care, as
acid can damage you too, especially if it splashes the eye. Also, avoid
industrial vinegars in the organic garden.
In tests, PennState College of Agricultural Sciences found acetic acid
gave over 90% control within 24 hours of application. Areas treated with
a single application of 5% acetic acid gave 33% control 9 weeks later,
but with 3 treatments of 20% acetic acid control remained above 90% even
after 9 weeks.
The soil can be acidified if drenched by acid treatment. Findings show
that the weak organic acid lasts only a few days. But given the results
I would like to see the results of sowings and plantings made at
intervals following treatment. Penn State College don't compare the
contribution of plant re-growth with weed seed germination.
The acid is not around long enough to have any lasting effect on
earthworms, soil invertebrates or organic matter breakdown. The good
news is that it won't cause any lasting or insidious harm to pets or
children. Remember to avoid splashes (especially in eyes) and wash off
immediately.
It can kill Canadian Thistle, Clover, Dandelion, Foxtail, Ivy Leaf,
Milkweed, Pigweed, Poison Hemlock, Ragweed, Quack grass, Bluegrass, plus
mosses, liverworts and more. However it is not selective and harms all
the plants it touches.
FATTY ACIDS
These work essentially in the same way as acetic acid. Of the 2 I
estimate that fatty acids have the edge. I'm guessing that they are less
harmful, that their soapy properties aid uptake but reduce spreading in
the soil. Obviously you can't use these when and where you are growing.
So it's probably best confined to spot treatments, perhaps when you need
extra help with weed control and to avoid the seriously nasty
herbicides.
Remember, if you burn a hole in the lawn with these treatments it is
important to fill the empty space as soon as possible. Sow seed and
promote strong thick re-growth with the help of organic fertilizers. If
your lawn becomes patchy it will become weedier. Always prevent weed
seeds being distributed.
Salt Weed Killers
A spoon full of salt will kill Dandelions and the like. Salt draws water
out of cells to leave them dry, and salty soils kill plant roots. So
target its application and use sparingly.
Excess salt poisons the soil. Many important organisms: bacteria, fungi,
earthworms; will be killed by salinity. It will eventually wash out,
even so I would not use it on land intended for cultivating plants. For
some gardeners it is an option to consider with drives and gravel areas
where plants are not intended to grow and where run off can be
contained. Remember, salt will not biodegrade, so regular use will
eventually be detrimental to surrounding areas.

http://www.minibite.com/america/malone.htm

I just pull mine but I'm old fashion.

Under no circumstances would I ever use Roundup, Weed B Gone, Weed and
Feed
or any of that other crap. Even under the best of circumstances it is
irresponsible and they usually causes more problems than they solve.

A good place for anyone thinking of using man made chemical on their yard
to
get an education:

http://www.mindfully.org/

Other sites of interest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundup

http://www.texascenter.org/publications/pest.pdf

http://www.mischel.com/diary/2001/01/07.htm

http://www.govlink.org/hazwaste/hous...chemicals.html

foolish foolish human race

per monsanto's own words

http://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/M...SDS25jan01.htm

oh well......

pull your weeds and use soil conditioner

I am consistantly amazed by the lack of responsibility of some of the
members of this ng. Go ahead and flame. I consider it an honor.

Jim Threadgill
Austin TX

And I'm constantly amazed at guys like you that can't just do your
weed pulling without calling others irresponsible. You post crap
like the Monsanto MSDS as if it were some great revelation of how
dangerous Roundup is. Go take a look at the MSDS for some simple
cleaning products that everybody uses inside their homes and routinely
get in skin contact with. Here's some MSDS for everyday products.
Take a look at some of them, simple widely used products like Pine-Sol
or laundry bleach:

http://www.thecloroxcompany.com/prod...sds/index.html

The MSDS's look remarkably similar to those for Roundup.

This is like the nut case Vegans who can't just do their own thing,

I would just mind my own business if it wasn't effecting me. Unfortunate,
the chemicals from Roundup, and Weed and Feed products are showing up in our
city water supply. The City of Austin has requested that we (residents of
Austin) quit using these products because of the water and also because of
the numerous trees that we are bless with in Central TX.. My neighbor was
going to use Weed and Feed on his yard close to where I have a grove of live
oaks. Fortunately, we talked about it and he agreed with me. The city mailed
a brochure explaining how these products are harmful. You may want to take
your complaints to city hall.

but have to go around condeming everyone else that doesn't agree with
their lifestyle and chooses to eat meat. I try to minimize the use
of any lawn chemicals and apply those that I do correctly. But I'm
not going to pull weeds to kill off an entire lawn full of them when
trying to establish a new lawn, just because you say so.

You're right about using any product that may contaminate the environment. I
admit to using a very small amount of bleach (1/4 cp per load of whites). We
have a high efficiency washer that uses a lot less energy, water, bleach and
detergent. But that is like being a little bit pregnant. I'll see if I can
get along w/o the bleach.

Please, please discontinue using Roundup. Try using natural herbicides if
you must. I've never used some of the organic suggestions (never needed to)
but as I understand they are as effective without the disastrous effects.


So, you admit to never using "some" of the organic suggestions,
including the vinegar and orange oil you recommended, but based on
your "understanding", you go around telling everyone else what to do
and call those of us that use herbicides irresponsible? Make a lot of
sense. When you've turned a 1/2 acre of what was all weeds into turf
with the methods that you "understand" to work, get back to us. BTW,
how long will it take you to pull those weeds and how long will it
take?

As to your Austin city council, could it be that they are a bunch of
environmental kooks that like you, don't have much real experience,
but go around telling everyone else that they are irresponsible?
Kind of like Al Gore with an electric bill that is 10X the typical
American, who owns 3 houses and who flies on private jets, lecturing
the rest of us on how we are destroying the planet with CO2 emissions?


The vegan example is a personal choice as I see it. To each his own and more
power to them. But if that vegan uses Weed and Feed near my trees I've got a
problem with that.

No, you make it clear that you have a problem with anyone who uses any
herbicide, whether applied correctly or not. Or do you think me
applying Roundup here in NJ is going to kill your precious tree in
TX? Why don't you go bitch to the farmers that routinely use
Roundup on crops? Oh, my God, when you go to the supermarket abd buy
some food, you're actually eating some of the ag product where Roundup
was used without knowing it!



Have you ever considered how many people use Weed and Feed and Roundup and
have never even read the instructions? I'm particularly worried about his
because of the large number of illegals we have in Austin.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Following that logic, we should pull every over the counter medication
from shelves because it's far more likely someone who can't read is
gonna have far worse consequences from that then from applying
Roundup. And maybe we should all stop driving cars too, because
illegal aliens do that without a license.

wrote:
jthread said:

"Eggs Zachtly" wrote in message
...
jthread said:


[...]

In some cases it's best to leave the roots in place
as they keep the seeds from germinating.

Huh?

[rest snipped]

Read the story about Albuquerque in the post. As opposed to hoeing the
weeds. Or even pulling them. The ground is disturbed and gives a place
for seeds to get in and germinate. Where mowing them leaves the ground
undisturbed.

That is *not* what you stated above. You said the roots keep the seeds
from germinating.

That jthread asswipe has no clue about agriculture, that's why I bozo
flushed him right after he started posting in here. I suggest everyone else
reading this should do the same.

"Eggs Zachtly" wrote in message
news
jthread said:

"Eggs Zachtly" wrote in message
...
jthread said:


[...]

In some cases it's best to leave the roots in place
as they keep the seeds from germinating.

Huh?

[rest snipped]

Read the story about Albuquerque in the post. As opposed to hoeing the
weeds. Or even pulling them. The ground is disturbed and gives a place
for
seeds to get in and germinate. Where mowing them leaves the ground
undisturbed.

That is *not* what you stated above. You said the roots keep the seeds
from
germinating.

--

sue me

Eggs

After heat killed bad germs, where do they go? Obviously not in heaven,
since they've been bad. Surely then can't go to hell, for the heat would
kill them again(?)...

"Steveo" wrote in message
...
wrote:
jthread said:

"Eggs Zachtly" wrote in message
...
jthread said:


[...]

In some cases it's best to leave the roots in place
as they keep the seeds from germinating.

Huh?

[rest snipped]

Read the story about Albuquerque in the post. As opposed to hoeing the
weeds. Or even pulling them. The ground is disturbed and gives a place
for seeds to get in and germinate. Where mowing them leaves the ground
undisturbed.

That is *not* what you stated above. You said the roots keep the seeds
from germinating.

That jthread asswipe has no clue about agriculture, that's why I bozo
flushed him right after he started posting in here. I suggest everyone
else
reading this should do the same.

it's a big love in!

wrote in message
ps.com...
On Nov 3, 11:13 am, "jthread" wrote:
wrote in message

ups.com...





On Nov 2, 2:53 pm, "jthread" wrote:
wrote in message

...
im not pushing this but found it interesting
--------------------------------------- 1 litre
(U.S.=1
quart) of boiling water (hot tap water will also work but not
quite as well)
5 tablespoons vinegar
6 tablespoons salt (regular table salt)
1 teaspoon lemon juice
2 tablespoons dishwasher(machine) detergent
to make a gallon multiply by 4
______________________________________________
Explanations
Natural Weed Killers are simple substances with a direct and obvious
action. They destroy plant life for a short period. They are
substances
encountered naturally but in small quantities. Their presence is
well-known and normally not harmful. But when applied in larger doses
the results are usually obvious in a very short time.
As always these methods need due caution. But they act at the point
they
are used. After treatment their damaging effect is dissipated.
Artificial Weed Killers (Herbicides)
These are more complex 'man-made' materials with indirect and subtle
activity. They have no natural occurrence. They effect the biochemical
processes of growing plants from within. Examples of these are 2 4 D,
Atrazine, Glyphosate, Clopyralid. They may be described as organic by
chemists, but are banned in organic gardening.
As they are not produced naturally, organisms are not adapted to their
presence and we do not know the full effects of releasing them into
the
environment. They can work in tiny quantities.
Many of these complex herbicides take time to act and likewise in
nature
their ill effects may not be immediately obvious. The chemical
interactions are complex. It is impossible to design a thorough
investigation cheaply, if at all. Scientists like to do specific
experiments on one process at a time, but this approach only scrapes
the
surface. Sometimes the inactive components of a weed killer
formulation
(e.g. surfactants) pose more problems than the weed killer itself.
Are we to study the effect on thousands of chemical processes and
their
interactions? Should we turn the whole earth into a laboratory? No,
but
especially not when there is a better solution.
___________________________________________
So let's take a look at the performance of Natural Weed Killers.
Acid Weed Killers
ACETIC ACID
Vinegar is made of Acetic Acid along with other weak organic acids. It
has become a popular 'cottage garden' alternative for those who
dislike
modern herbicides. It works by disrupting membranes and causing
leakage
of plant cells. The damage to plants appears rapidly and even quicker
on
hot days.
Household Vinegar contains 5% acetic acid which may not be strong
enough; 15-20% acetic acid solutions are more effective. Take care, as
acid can damage you too, especially if it splashes the eye. Also,
avoid
industrial vinegars in the organic garden.
In tests, PennState College of Agricultural Sciences found acetic acid
gave over 90% control within 24 hours of application. Areas treated
with
a single application of 5% acetic acid gave 33% control 9 weeks later,
but with 3 treatments of 20% acetic acid control remained above 90%
even
after 9 weeks.
The soil can be acidified if drenched by acid treatment. Findings show
that the weak organic acid lasts only a few days. But given the
results
I would like to see the results of sowings and plantings made at
intervals following treatment. Penn State College don't compare the
contribution of plant re-growth with weed seed germination.
The acid is not around long enough to have any lasting effect on
earthworms, soil invertebrates or organic matter breakdown. The good
news is that it won't cause any lasting or insidious harm to pets or
children. Remember to avoid splashes (especially in eyes) and wash off
immediately.
It can kill Canadian Thistle, Clover, Dandelion, Foxtail, Ivy Leaf,
Milkweed, Pigweed, Poison Hemlock, Ragweed, Quack grass, Bluegrass,
plus
mosses, liverworts and more. However it is not selective and harms all
the plants it touches.
FATTY ACIDS
These work essentially in the same way as acetic acid. Of the 2 I
estimate that fatty acids have the edge. I'm guessing that they are
less
harmful, that their soapy properties aid uptake but reduce spreading
in
the soil. Obviously you can't use these when and where you are
growing.
So it's probably best confined to spot treatments, perhaps when you
need
extra help with weed control and to avoid the seriously nasty
herbicides.
Remember, if you burn a hole in the lawn with these treatments it is
important to fill the empty space as soon as possible. Sow seed and
promote strong thick re-growth with the help of organic fertilizers.
If
your lawn becomes patchy it will become weedier. Always prevent weed
seeds being distributed.
Salt Weed Killers
A spoon full of salt will kill Dandelions and the like. Salt draws
water
out of cells to leave them dry, and salty soils kill plant roots. So
target its application and use sparingly.
Excess salt poisons the soil. Many important organisms: bacteria,
fungi,
earthworms; will be killed by salinity. It will eventually wash out,
even so I would not use it on land intended for cultivating plants.
For
some gardeners it is an option to consider with drives and gravel
areas
where plants are not intended to grow and where run off can be
contained. Remember, salt will not biodegrade, so regular use will
eventually be detrimental to surrounding areas.

http://www.minibite.com/america/malone.htm

I just pull mine but I'm old fashion.

Under no circumstances would I ever use Roundup, Weed B Gone, Weed and
Feed
or any of that other crap. Even under the best of circumstances it is
irresponsible and they usually causes more problems than they solve.

A good place for anyone thinking of using man made chemical on their
yard
to
get an education:

http://www.mindfully.org/

Other sites of interest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundup

http://www.texascenter.org/publications/pest.pdf

http://www.mischel.com/diary/2001/01/07.htm

http://www.govlink.org/hazwaste/hous...chemicals.html

foolish foolish human race

per monsanto's own words

http://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/M...SDS25jan01.htm

oh well......

pull your weeds and use soil conditioner

I am consistantly amazed by the lack of responsibility of some of the
members of this ng. Go ahead and flame. I consider it an honor.

Jim Threadgill
Austin TX

And I'm constantly amazed at guys like you that can't just do your
weed pulling without calling others irresponsible. You post crap
like the Monsanto MSDS as if it were some great revelation of how
dangerous Roundup is. Go take a look at the MSDS for some simple
cleaning products that everybody uses inside their homes and routinely
get in skin contact with. Here's some MSDS for everyday products.
Take a look at some of them, simple widely used products like Pine-Sol
or laundry bleach:

http://www.thecloroxcompany.com/prod...sds/index.html

The MSDS's look remarkably similar to those for Roundup.

This is like the nut case Vegans who can't just do their own thing,

I would just mind my own business if it wasn't effecting me. Unfortunate,
the chemicals from Roundup, and Weed and Feed products are showing up in
our
city water supply. The City of Austin has requested that we (residents of
Austin) quit using these products because of the water and also because
of
the numerous trees that we are bless with in Central TX.. My neighbor was
going to use Weed and Feed on his yard close to where I have a grove of
live
oaks. Fortunately, we talked about it and he agreed with me. The city
mailed
a brochure explaining how these products are harmful. You may want to
take
your complaints to city hall.

but have to go around condeming everyone else that doesn't agree with
their lifestyle and chooses to eat meat. I try to minimize the use
of any lawn chemicals and apply those that I do correctly. But I'm
not going to pull weeds to kill off an entire lawn full of them when
trying to establish a new lawn, just because you say so.

You're right about using any product that may contaminate the
environment. I
admit to using a very small amount of bleach (1/4 cp per load of whites).
We
have a high efficiency washer that uses a lot less energy, water, bleach
and
detergent. But that is like being a little bit pregnant. I'll see if I
can
get along w/o the bleach.

Please, please discontinue using Roundup. Try using natural herbicides if
you must. I've never used some of the organic suggestions (never needed
to)
but as I understand they are as effective without the disastrous effects.


So, you admit to never using "some" of the organic suggestions,
including the vinegar and orange oil you recommended, but based on
your "understanding", you go around telling everyone else what to do
and call those of us that use herbicides irresponsible? Make a lot of
sense. When you've turned a 1/2 acre of what was all weeds into turf
with the methods that you "understand" to work, get back to us. BTW,
how long will it take you to pull those weeds and how long will it
take?

As to your Austin city council, could it be that they are a bunch of
environmental kooks that like you, don't have much real experience,
but go around telling everyone else that they are irresponsible?
Kind of like Al Gore with an electric bill that is 10X the typical
American, who owns 3 houses and who flies on private jets, lecturing
the rest of us on how we are destroying the planet with CO2 emissions?


The vegan example is a personal choice as I see it. To each his own and
more
power to them. But if that vegan uses Weed and Feed near my trees I've
got a
problem with that.

No, you make it clear that you have a problem with anyone who uses any
herbicide, whether applied correctly or not. Or do you think me
applying Roundup here in NJ is going to kill your precious tree in
TX? Why don't you go bitch to the farmers that routinely use
Roundup on crops? Oh, my God, when you go to the supermarket abd buy
some food, you're actually eating some of the ag product where Roundup
was used without knowing it!


tee hee


Have you ever considered how many people use Weed and Feed and Roundup
and
have never even read the instructions? I'm particularly worried about his
because of the large number of illegals we have in Austin.- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -


Following that logic, we should pull every over the counter medication
from shelves because it's far more likely someone who can't read is
gonna have far worse consequences from that then from applying
Roundup. And maybe we should all stop driving cars too, because
illegal aliens do that without a license.

"Eggs Zachtly" wrote in message
...
jthread said:

"Eggs Zachtly" wrote in message
news
jthread said:

"Eggs Zachtly" wrote in message
...
jthread said:


[...]

In some cases it's best to leave the roots in place
as they keep the seeds from germinating.

Huh?

[rest snipped]

Read the story about Albuquerque in the post. As opposed to hoeing the
weeds. Or even pulling them. The ground is disturbed and gives a place
for
seeds to get in and germinate. Where mowing them leaves the ground
undisturbed.

That is *not* what you stated above. You said the roots keep the seeds
from
germinating.

--

sue me

Nah. No need.

*flushing sounds*

good argument. killfile me. please. it's my pleasure.

--

Eggs

-There is always one more imbecile than you counted on.

jthread said:

"Eggs Zachtly" wrote in message
news
jthread said:

"Eggs Zachtly" wrote in message
...
jthread said:


[...]

In some cases it's best to leave the roots in place
as they keep the seeds from germinating.

Huh?

[rest snipped]

Read the story about Albuquerque in the post. As opposed to hoeing the
weeds. Or even pulling them. The ground is disturbed and gives a place
for
seeds to get in and germinate. Where mowing them leaves the ground
undisturbed.

That is *not* what you stated above. You said the roots keep the seeds
from
germinating.

--

sue me

Nah. No need.

*flushing sounds*

--

Eggs

-There is always one more imbecile than you counted on.