[whining mode] New neighbors next door- to the west.
Their first week in they've cut down a *beautiful* 30 year old Black Olive
tree that shaded my entire front garden- full of shade plants. Anthuriums,
calatheas, ferns, teeny little gems that I had cherished for years in
containers before putting them in the ground.
That garden is only one year old- and now I am having to reorganize the
whole darn thing. Plants are wilting faster than I can transplant them.

And I thought our town had an ordinance against this sort of thing without a
permit- guess that explains the city trucks I've seen stopping to take
photos of the stump three times now.
Would I be evil to hope they get fined?

And I know about Black Olive maintenance issues- I have one. But had they
bothered to live here a while before killing trees they'd have noticed that
*we* always keep their walkways pressure cleaned- husband just can't seem to
stop once he gets going.
Not feeling too good about my new neighbors right now. [/whining mode]


--
Toni
South Florida USA
Zone 10b
http://ww.cearbhaill.com

"Toni" wrote in message
...
[whining mode] New neighbors next door- to the west.
Their first week in they've cut down a *beautiful* 30 year old Black Olive
tree that shaded my entire front garden- full of shade plants. Anthuriums,
calatheas, ferns, teeny little gems that I had cherished for years in
containers before putting them in the ground.
That garden is only one year old- and now I am having to reorganize the
whole darn thing. Plants are wilting faster than I can transplant them.

And I thought our town had an ordinance against this sort of thing without
a
permit- guess that explains the city trucks I've seen stopping to take
photos of the stump three times now.
Would I be evil to hope they get fined?

And I know about Black Olive maintenance issues- I have one. But had they
bothered to live here a while before killing trees they'd have noticed
that
*we* always keep their walkways pressure cleaned- husband just can't seem
to
stop once he gets going.
Not feeling too good about my new neighbors right now. [/whining mode]


--
Toni
South Florida USA
Zone 10b
http://ww.cearbhaill.com

Guess you should have bought the property when you had the chance.

Whining over a damn tree!? Lady, you ain't seen nothing yet!

Barking dogs?
Noisy, unruly kids?
Boom Boxes?
Loud parties that go on for hours?
Unkempt lawn?
Oddly painted house?
And on and on and on...

Get the picture?

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:54:23 -0400, "Toni" wrote:

[whining mode] New neighbors next door- to the west.
Their first week in they've cut down a *beautiful* 30 year old Black Olive
tree that shaded my entire front garden- full of shade plants. Anthuriums,
calatheas, ferns, teeny little gems that I had cherished for years in
containers before putting them in the ground.
That garden is only one year old- and now I am having to reorganize the
whole darn thing. Plants are wilting faster than I can transplant them.

And I thought our town had an ordinance against this sort of thing without a
permit- guess that explains the city trucks I've seen stopping to take
photos of the stump three times now.
Would I be evil to hope they get fined?

Your town has an ordinance that requires a homeowner to get a permit
to cut down a tree on his own property? Yikes!

Sure glad I live in the "Live Free or Die" state. We just tax the
trees that you cut down. No income or sales taxes but we have lots of
little ones.

John

John Bachman wrote:

Your town has an ordinance that requires a homeowner to get a permit
to cut down a tree on his own property? Yikes!

Sure glad I live in the "Live Free or Die" state. We just tax the
trees that you cut down. No income or sales taxes but we have lots of
little ones.


So freedom is the right to adversely affect the lives of others just because
you happen to be standing on property you own?

With freedom comes responsibility, or else we don't have freedom. We would
have anarchy. Laws, such as those that prevent the willy-nilly chopping down
of mature trees, attempt to balance the freedoms of everyone affected, not
just the freedoms of the owner of the lot where the trunk happens to come
down.

Simply imposing a tax, as you say your state does, means that only people
who can afford freedom are allowed freedom. And that's not freedom at all.
Whether or not a tree should be allowed to be cut down should depend on an
examination of the particular situation, and not just an examination of
someone's wallet.

There are situations when trees should be cut down, and there are situations
when trees shouldn't be cut down. I'm not saying that just because a tree
gives me shade, my neighbor shouldn't be allowed to cut it down. Nor am I
saying that my need for an unobstructed view mean that my neighbor shouldn't
be allowed to construct a cellular phone tower on his or her front lawn,
either. The situations need to be considered on their own merits, and in
whole. The ownership of the land involved may be a factor in who can
initiate consideration of the situation. It may, in some situations, be the
most important consideration. But it shouldn't always be the most important
consideration, nor should it be the only consideration.

We live together on this planet. Being rich enough to own land, or rich
enough to afford fees or taxes shouldn't give someone a higher right to
impose on my right of freedom.

--
Warren H.

==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
What's on TV? See the new fall network schedules online:
http://www.holzemville.com/mall/tele.../fall2005.html

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 13:39:33 -0700, "Warren"
wrote:

John Bachman wrote:

Your town has an ordinance that requires a homeowner to get a permit
to cut down a tree on his own property? Yikes!

Sure glad I live in the "Live Free or Die" state. We just tax the
trees that you cut down. No income or sales taxes but we have lots of
little ones.


So freedom is the right to adversely affect the lives of others just because
you happen to be standing on property you own?

Are you saying that I should need permission to remove a tree that
makes a mess so that I do not disturb my neighbor's garden? That is
what the OP was complaining about.


With freedom comes responsibility, or else we don't have freedom. We would
have anarchy. Laws, such as those that prevent the willy-nilly chopping down
of mature trees, attempt to balance the freedoms of everyone affected, not
just the freedoms of the owner of the lot where the trunk happens to come
down.

So society should decide whether that tree comes down? Does not sound
like freedom to me.


Simply imposing a tax, as you say your state does, means that only people
who can afford freedom are allowed freedom. And that's not freedom at all.
Whether or not a tree should be allowed to be cut down should depend on an
examination of the particular situation, and not just an examination of
someone's wallet.

Nope, the tax only comes into play when you cut down a significant
number of trees. The income from the logs more than pays the tax. I
ran into this unexpectedly when I cleared two acres of my lot to put
in an orchard, small fruits and vegetables. I suppose by your logic I
might never have my beautiful garden if some nut thought that the
trees should stay.

Sure glad that I do not live in such a place.


There are situations when trees should be cut down, and there are situations
when trees shouldn't be cut down.

Who decides in your world?

I'm not saying that just because a tree
gives me shade, my neighbor shouldn't be allowed to cut it down. Nor am I
saying that my need for an unobstructed view mean that my neighbor shouldn't
be allowed to construct a cellular phone tower on his or her front lawn,
either. The situations need to be considered on their own merits, and in
whole. The ownership of the land involved may be a factor in who can
initiate consideration of the situation. It may, in some situations, be the
most important consideration. But it shouldn't always be the most important
consideration, nor should it be the only consideration.

Who decides?

We live together on this planet. Being rich enough to own land, or rich
enough to afford fees or taxes shouldn't give someone a higher right to
impose on my right of freedom.

In my world you are free to do as you please as long as it is lawful.
So am I. That is freedom.

John

"Hound Dog" wrote in message
...

Lady, you ain't seen nothing yet!

Barking dogs?
Noisy, unruly kids?
Boom Boxes?
Loud parties that go on for hours?
Unkempt lawn?
Oddly painted house?
And on and on and on...

Get the picture?


How about neighbors that cut YOUR trees! That's what I had to deal with.
I feel for you though. I love my shade garden, too. Your new neighbors sound
like they are clueless. Hope you have someplace to put the plants you saved.
Karen

"Warren" expounded:

So freedom is the right to adversely affect the lives of others just because
you happen to be standing on property you own?

Yea, I guess it does, if that's how you want to look at it. If I own
the property, and I want more sun where a tree shades, then I can cut
the tree down - without asking anyone's permission (and here in MA we
don't have to pay a tax on it). At least that's the way it works
around here. I wouldn't want it any other way.
--
Ann, gardening in Zone 6a
South of Boston, Massachusetts
e-mail address is not checked
******************************

Ann wrote:
"Warren" expounded:

So freedom is the right to adversely affect the lives of others just
because
you happen to be standing on property you own?

Yea, I guess it does, if that's how you want to look at it. If I own
the property, and I want more sun where a tree shades, then I can cut
the tree down - without asking anyone's permission (and here in MA we
don't have to pay a tax on it). At least that's the way it works
around here. I wouldn't want it any other way.

So clear-cutting forests, strip mining, damming of rivers and all other
kinds of mass environmental damage is fine with you as long as the owner of
the property is the one doing it?

If you can cut down your tree, why can't a lumber company clear-cut an
entire forest? What if your neighbor was a farmer, and the trees you cut
down resulted in erosion that wiped-out his entire crop? You owned the land
the trees were on. Didn't you have the right to cut them down regardless of
what damage it did to the environment or economy?

I'm sure glad it's not your way in most places in this country. I'm glad
that most places have sensible land use rules that address environmental
concerns, and who owns the land is not the only criteria used to determine
if something can be done. That kind of thinking goes more with a feudal
system than it does with a free society. (Note that it's a free society, not
a bunch of free individuals. That's anarchy.)

--
Warren H.

==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
What's on TV? See the new fall network schedules online:
http://www.holzemville.com/mall/tele.../fall2005.html

In article ,
"Toni" wrote:

- [whining mode] New neighbors next door- to the west.
- Their first week in they've cut down a *beautiful* 30 year old Black Olive
- tree that shaded my entire front garden- full of shade plants. Anthuriums,
- calatheas, ferns, teeny little gems that I had cherished for years in
- containers before putting them in the ground.
- That garden is only one year old- and now I am having to reorganize the
- whole darn thing. Plants are wilting faster than I can transplant them.
-
- And I thought our town had an ordinance against this sort of thing without a
- permit- guess that explains the city trucks I've seen stopping to take
- photos of the stump three times now.
- Would I be evil to hope they get fined?
-
- And I know about Black Olive maintenance issues- I have one. But had they
- bothered to live here a while before killing trees they'd have noticed that
- *we* always keep their walkways pressure cleaned- husband just can't seem to
- stop once he gets going.
- Not feeling too good about my new neighbors right now. [/whining mode]


Some people just hate trees. When I was a kid my step-father cut down a
beautiful weeping willow tree in our backyard. Later, after I moved out,
he cut down the tree in the front yard, too.
--
8^)~~~ Sue (remove the x to e-mail)
~~~~~~
"I reserve the absolute right to be smarter
today than I was yesterday." -Adlai Stevenson

http://www.suzanne-eckhardt.com/
http://www.intergnat.com/malebashing/
http://www.intergnat.com/pussygames/

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:13:24 -0700, "Warren"
wrote:

Ann wrote:
"Warren" expounded:

So freedom is the right to adversely affect the lives of others just
because
you happen to be standing on property you own?

Yea, I guess it does, if that's how you want to look at it. If I own
the property, and I want more sun where a tree shades, then I can cut
the tree down - without asking anyone's permission (and here in MA we
don't have to pay a tax on it). At least that's the way it works
around here. I wouldn't want it any other way.

So clear-cutting forests, strip mining, damming of rivers and all other
kinds of mass environmental damage is fine with you as long as the owner of
the property is the one doing it?


If you can cut down your tree, why can't a lumber company clear-cut an
entire forest? What if your neighbor was a farmer, and the trees you cut
down resulted in erosion that wiped-out his entire crop? You owned the land
the trees were on. Didn't you have the right to cut them down regardless of
what damage it did to the environment or economy?

A sure sign that a person is losing a debate is when they extend the
subject to a ridiculous extreme. We were talking about one tree and
you have tried to extend the same principles to earth scorching.

End of conversation.

John

John Bachman wrote:
A sure sign that a person is losing a debate is when they extend the
subject to a ridiculous extreme. We were talking about one tree and
you have tried to extend the same principles to earth scorching.

My response was to your earlier message that said::

Your town has an ordinance that requires a homeowner to get a permit
to cut down a tree on his own property? Yikes!

Sure glad I live in the "Live Free or Die" state. We just tax the
trees that you cut down. No income or sales taxes but we have lots of
little ones.

So it was you that opened the scope of the discussion beyond that one tree.

A sure sign that a person is losing a debate is when they accuse someone
else's point as being a "ridiculous extreme" instead of addressing the
issue.

So how does the world work in your view that all it should take to cut down
trees is to pay a tax? Or do you really have some additional criteria as to
who has the freedom to do that on their property, and who doesn't?
Apparently you're in favor of you having the right, but when someone else
clear-cuts a forest, that's a "ridiculous extreme", and isn't covered by
your ideas of freedom.

So where do you draw the line? Instead of pouting about how the example is a
"ridiculous extreme", why don't you address the point, and tell us where
you're drawing the line, and why?

Or was my position a ridiculous extreme. In case you missed it, I said:

"There are situations when trees should be cut down, and there are
situations
when trees shouldn't be cut down. I'm not saying that just because a tree
gives me shade, my neighbor shouldn't be allowed to cut it down. Nor am I
saying that my need for an unobstructed view mean that my neighbor shouldn't
be allowed to construct a cellular phone tower on his or her front lawn,
either. The situations need to be considered on their own merits, and in
whole. The ownership of the land involved may be a factor in who can
initiate consideration of the situation. It may, in some situations, be the
most important consideration. But it shouldn't always be the most important
consideration, nor should it be the only consideration."

Is that a "ridiculous extreme"?

If you've got a point, make it. Or do you want to stand on your "End of
conversation" comment? If that's all you had to say in response, then you
wasted your time. You said nothing. You haven't been the least bit
convincing.

So do you believe that a property owner should be able to cut down all the
trees they want without regard to others (so long as they can afford to pay
the tax), or is that not your position? And if that's not your position,
where are you drawing the line, and why? And how do you justify it compared
to my "ridiculous extreme" position?

--
Warren H.

==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
What's on TV? See the new fall network schedules online:
http://www.holzemville.com/mall/tele.../fall2005.html

"Toni" wrote in message
...
[whining mode] New neighbors next door- to the west.
Their first week in they've cut down a *beautiful* 30 year old Black Olive
tree that shaded my entire front garden- full of shade plants. Anthuriums,
calatheas, ferns, teeny little gems that I had cherished for years in
containers before putting them in the ground.
That garden is only one year old- and now I am having to reorganize the
whole darn thing. Plants are wilting faster than I can transplant them.

And I thought our town had an ordinance against this sort of thing without
a
permit- guess that explains the city trucks I've seen stopping to take
photos of the stump three times now.
Would I be evil to hope they get fined?

And I know about Black Olive maintenance issues- I have one. But had they
bothered to live here a while before killing trees they'd have noticed
that
*we* always keep their walkways pressure cleaned- husband just can't seem
to
stop once he gets going.
Not feeling too good about my new neighbors right now. [/whining mode]


--
Toni
South Florida USA
Zone 10b
http://ww.cearbhaill.com

Perhaps your new next door neighbor wanted to have a beautiful sun lit lawn
with rose beds and other sun loving flowers as much as you wanted your shade
garden.

Perhaps he had to have the tree cut down by order of the city due to the
tree's root system damaging the sidewalks, street or sewer system.

Perhaps the tree was diseased and needed to be removed.

Or perhaps he just didn't like the tree!

Did you introduce yourself and let them know just how you felt about that
tree?

John Bachman wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:54:23 -0400, "Toni" wrote:
[...]
And I thought our town had an ordinance against this sort of thing without a
permit- guess that explains the city trucks I've seen stopping to take
photos of the stump three times now.
Would I be evil to hope they get fined?


Your town has an ordinance that requires a homeowner to get a permit
to cut down a tree on his own property? Yikes!

Sure glad I live in the "Live Free or Die" state. We just tax the
trees that you cut down. No income or sales taxes but we have lots of
little ones.

John

Actually, in many places trees in the front yard are not on someone's
property - they're on city property. Check out your lot lines, you may
be surpised how much of the city's property you're taking care of.

And while I believe in freedom to my own thing, and you to do yours, if
I interfere with your peace and enjoyment of your property or
vice-versa, even if I do what I do entirely on my own property (or you
on yours), then you have a legitimate grievance (and vice versa).
Freedom to my own thing ends where your right to peace and quiet begins.
And vice versa.

Then there is the genral rule that trees in the city are good for
everybody, not just those on whose property they happen to grow. So
everybody has an interest in preserving them (or cutting them down if
they get dangerously rotten, etc.)

The closer we live together, and the more of us live together in one
place, the less individual freedom there can be. Aren't you glad you
live in a society that believes that the nmecessary compromises should
be governed by law, and not imposed by bute force?

"Toni" wrote in message
...
[whining mode] New neighbors next door- to the west.
Their first week in they've cut down a *beautiful* 30 year old Black Olive
tree that shaded my entire front garden- full of shade plants. Anthuriums,
calatheas, ferns, teeny little gems that I had cherished for years in
containers before putting them in the ground.
That garden is only one year old- and now I am having to reorganize the
whole darn thing. Plants are wilting faster than I can transplant them.


Aren't neighbors grand! I had an elderly couple living next door for years.
They took great care of the place, were friendly, and made an effort to do
some gardening. They moved last July and some trashy woman moved in along
with her nephew and son. They have three cars, a truck, and two
motorcycles. Rather than shift the cars, they space them out in the
driveway so they can weave around the vehicles when they need to go
somewhere. The driveway is rather short, so they have to park across the
sidewalk and one car is parked so the rear half of the car in the street.

Last year they cut the grass three times. This year they set the mower deck
so low that it scalps the grass, presumably so they won't have to mow very
often. On Mother's Day weekend, the woman bought a flat of petunias. She
planted a couple of cell pack, distributed a few more around her beds, and
left a half-full flat in the bed next to the garage. She hasn't touched the
plants since, so now there are half-dead annuals, still in the cell packs,
sprinkled around the yard. Unfortunately, she hasn't trimmed, edged, or
weeded since she moved in and there are huge weeds and saplings growing all
over. Two weeks ago she decided to clean-up a bit, but after a few minutes
she abandoned the job leaving her tools and a black plastic drum liner in
the yard next to a couple gallon nursery liners with dead plants she bought
last fall but never planted. There are soda cans, cigarette butts, dog
toys, and assorted lawn furniture strewn around the yard. One would think
that between her fat ass and the two "study" bubbas and their illegitimate
children they could manage to clean-up the place but they seldom leave the
house, choosing to stay sealed inside with the AC running when the
temperatures are in the 60s! When they do come outside they give us a cold
glare or pretend we don't exist. I see some tall shrubs in my future!

Well, it's not always a neighbor. The backyard gardener show on PBS had a
segment recently in a which a straight-line windstorm had upended an
enormous 100 year old oak in the middle of summer. He had an entire shade
garden under the tree, which was now exposed to the blazing sun of an
Oklahoma summer. He was also concerned about transplanting, and ended up
making some temporary shades with laths, shade cloth, etc. so that he could
carry the plants through until cooler weather in the fall, when he could
transplant them with more success.
"Toni" wrote in message
...
[whining mode] New neighbors next door- to the west.
Their first week in they've cut down a *beautiful* 30 year old Black Olive
tree that shaded my entire front garden- full of shade plants. Anthuriums,
calatheas, ferns, teeny little gems that I had cherished for years in
containers before putting them in the ground.
That garden is only one year old- and now I am having to reorganize the
whole darn thing. Plants are wilting faster than I can transplant them.

And I thought our town had an ordinance against this sort of thing without
a
permit- guess that explains the city trucks I've seen stopping to take
photos of the stump three times now.
Would I be evil to hope they get fined?

And I know about Black Olive maintenance issues- I have one. But had they
bothered to live here a while before killing trees they'd have noticed
that
*we* always keep their walkways pressure cleaned- husband just can't seem
to
stop once he gets going.
Not feeling too good about my new neighbors right now. [/whining mode]


--
Toni
South Florida USA
Zone 10b
http://ww.cearbhaill.com