Suzie-Q wrote:
In article ,
"Toni" wrote:

- [whining mode] New neighbors next door- to the west.
- Their first week in they've cut down a *beautiful* 30 year old
Black Olive
- tree that shaded my entire front garden- full of shade plants.
Anthuriums,
- calatheas, ferns, teeny little gems that I had cherished for
years in
- containers before putting them in the ground.
- That garden is only one year old- and now I am having to
reorganize the
- whole darn thing. Plants are wilting faster than I can
transplant them. -
- And I thought our town had an ordinance against this sort of
thing without a
- permit- guess that explains the city trucks I've seen stopping
to take
- photos of the stump three times now.
- Would I be evil to hope they get fined?
-
- And I know about Black Olive maintenance issues- I have one. But
had they
- bothered to live here a while before killing trees they'd have
noticed that
- *we* always keep their walkways pressure cleaned- husband just
can't seem to
- stop once he gets going.
- Not feeling too good about my new neighbors right now. [/whining
mode]


Some people just hate trees. When I was a kid my step-father cut
down a beautiful weeping willow tree in our backyard. Later, after
I moved out,
he cut down the tree in the front yard, too.

I hope you didn't learn about choosing partners from your mother.

--

Travis in Shoreline (just North of Seattle) Washington
USDA Zone 8
Sunset Zone 5

"Warren" expounded:

So clear-cutting forests, strip mining, damming of rivers and all other
kinds of mass environmental damage is fine with you as long as the owner of
the property is the one doing it?

Who said any of the above other than you? Stretching your reach a
bit, aren't you? But that just means you've run out of reasonable
argument.

I can cut down any tree I want on my property. As I should be able
to. You go ahead and live in your controlling environment, I promise
I won't move next door to you. And thankfully most of New England
feels as I do.
--
Ann, gardening in Zone 6a
South of Boston, Massachusetts
e-mail address is not checked
******************************

"John Bachman" wrote in message
...


Your town has an ordinance that requires a homeowner to get a permit
to cut down a tree on his own property? Yikes!


Not a totally bad idea, for two reasons:

1) People sometimes think they can cut down huge trees without the help of a
professional. But, there's a certain order in which to do these things, to
assure that falling branches don't cause problems. To use the analogy of a
building permit, which most people accept, why not have a permit process for
removing trees? Let's face it: A significant portion of the population is
just plain stupid. Sounds like a good idea to have someone knowledgable stop
by, interview the budding lumberjack, and make sure they have a proper plan
in place for 1000 lb chunks of falling wood. I also think it would be wise
if the permit required the lumberjack to pay every single penny of a
neighbor's property damage. Override their deductible, in other words. Most
decent people would offer this, but some people aren't decent.

2) A library is a place where OTHER people go to read about trees and
plants. So, we have people who MIGHT want to take down a tree for the wrong
reasons, after doing absolutely zero research. Example: When I moved to my
new house last September, the old lady across the street came over and said
EXACTLY this: "Hi...my name is Helen. Let me tell you about that stupid tree
of mine, before it upsets you". Her "problem" is an ancient sycamore which
has the nerve to drop bark on her lawn all the time. At certain times of
year, it blows across the street to my property. I don't mind. That's what
sycamores do, like lobsters moulting. But, she is convinced that the tree is
diseased, and that 3 tree services and a guy from the township are
withholding information from her. She's probably telling other people that
*I* am in error, too, by telling her that the tree is normal.

So, why not have someone from the town stop by, find out her reasons for
removing the tree, and if the problem is "mess" or "maintenance", see if the
neighbors like the tree enough to pitch in now and then? If not, give her
the permit. My crazy neighbor has a lawn guy who handles leaves & bark, but
if she didn't, I'd be happy to wander over there and rake up the bark. Tree
saved, problem solved.

Why should this matter to you? A big shade tree is worth however many tons
of air conditioning. The number doesn't matter, but it's large. Got any idea
how much heat is radiated by an unshaded blacktop driveway? Which magical,
easily replaceable and 100% clean source to you get electricity from?

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:33:41 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"John Bachman" wrote in message
.. .


Your town has an ordinance that requires a homeowner to get a permit
to cut down a tree on his own property? Yikes!


Not a totally bad idea, for two reasons:

1) People sometimes think they can cut down huge trees without the help of a
professional. But, there's a certain order in which to do these things, to
assure that falling branches don't cause problems. To use the analogy of a
building permit, which most people accept, why not have a permit process for
removing trees? Let's face it: A significant portion of the population is
just plain stupid. Sounds like a good idea to have someone knowledgable stop
by, interview the budding lumberjack, and make sure they have a proper plan
in place for 1000 lb chunks of falling wood.

Requiring the taxpayers to hire a tree nanny because some people are
too dumb to know how to safely cut down a tree can be extended to the
myriad of things that people are dumb about. Follow that logic and we
have a town hall full of tree nannies, snowblowing nannies, water
garden nannies, etc. Pretty soon you need to pass a test before you
can buy a Felco pruning tool.

I also think it would be wise
if the permit required the lumberjack to pay every single penny of a
neighbor's property damage. Override their deductible, in other words. Most
decent people would offer this, but some people aren't decent.

I think that we have plenty of lawyers at the ready with liability
suits. No need for additional permit requirements to enforce
accountablity.


2) A library is a place where OTHER people go to read about trees and
plants. So, we have people who MIGHT want to take down a tree for the wrong
reasons, after doing absolutely zero research. Example: When I moved to my
new house last September, the old lady across the street came over and said
EXACTLY this: "Hi...my name is Helen. Let me tell you about that stupid tree
of mine, before it upsets you". Her "problem" is an ancient sycamore which
has the nerve to drop bark on her lawn all the time. At certain times of
year, it blows across the street to my property. I don't mind. That's what
sycamores do, like lobsters moulting. But, she is convinced that the tree is
diseased, and that 3 tree services and a guy from the township are
withholding information from her. She's probably telling other people that
*I* am in error, too, by telling her that the tree is normal.

So, why not have someone from the town stop by, find out her reasons for
removing the tree, and if the problem is "mess" or "maintenance", see if the
neighbors like the tree enough to pitch in now and then? If not, give her
the permit. My crazy neighbor has a lawn guy who handles leaves & bark, but
if she didn't, I'd be happy to wander over there and rake up the bark. Tree
saved, problem solved.


Yup, ignorant people do dumb things. "Momma always said, 'stupid is
as stupid does'" - Forrest Gump I am not willing to pay taxes to keep
the ignorant from doing what they do, I just cannot afford that much.

Why should this matter to you? A big shade tree is worth however many tons
of air conditioning. The number doesn't matter, but it's large. Got any idea
how much heat is radiated by an unshaded blacktop driveway? Which magical,
easily replaceable and 100% clean source to you get electricity from?


Of course I care. But that does not necessarily translate into more
laws, more bureacrats and more taxes.

JMHO

John

In article ,
John Bachman wrote:

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:33:41 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"John Bachman" wrote in message
.. .


Your town has an ordinance that requires a homeowner to get a permit
to cut down a tree on his own property? Yikes!


Not a totally bad idea, for two reasons:

1) People sometimes think they can cut down huge trees without the help of a
professional. But, there's a certain order in which to do these things, to
assure that falling branches don't cause problems. To use the analogy of a
building permit, which most people accept, why not have a permit process for
removing trees? Let's face it: A significant portion of the population is
just plain stupid. Sounds like a good idea to have someone knowledgable stop
by, interview the budding lumberjack, and make sure they have a proper plan
in place for 1000 lb chunks of falling wood.

Requiring the taxpayers to hire a tree nanny because some people are
too dumb to know how to safely cut down a tree can be extended to the
myriad of things that people are dumb about. Follow that logic and we
have a town hall full of tree nannies, snowblowing nannies, water
garden nannies, etc. Pretty soon you need to pass a test before you
can buy a Felco pruning tool.

I also think it would be wise
if the permit required the lumberjack to pay every single penny of a
neighbor's property damage. Override their deductible, in other words. Most
decent people would offer this, but some people aren't decent.

I think that we have plenty of lawyers at the ready with liability
suits. No need for additional permit requirements to enforce
accountablity.


2) A library is a place where OTHER people go to read about trees and
plants. So, we have people who MIGHT want to take down a tree for the wrong
reasons, after doing absolutely zero research. Example: When I moved to my
new house last September, the old lady across the street came over and said
EXACTLY this: "Hi...my name is Helen. Let me tell you about that stupid tree
of mine, before it upsets you". Her "problem" is an ancient sycamore which
has the nerve to drop bark on her lawn all the time. At certain times of
year, it blows across the street to my property. I don't mind. That's what
sycamores do, like lobsters moulting. But, she is convinced that the tree is
diseased, and that 3 tree services and a guy from the township are
withholding information from her. She's probably telling other people that
*I* am in error, too, by telling her that the tree is normal.

So, why not have someone from the town stop by, find out her reasons for
removing the tree, and if the problem is "mess" or "maintenance", see if the
neighbors like the tree enough to pitch in now and then? If not, give her
the permit. My crazy neighbor has a lawn guy who handles leaves & bark, but
if she didn't, I'd be happy to wander over there and rake up the bark. Tree
saved, problem solved.


Yup, ignorant people do dumb things. "Momma always said, 'stupid is
as stupid does'" - Forrest Gump I am not willing to pay taxes to keep
the ignorant from doing what they do, I just cannot afford that much.

Why should this matter to you? A big shade tree is worth however many tons
of air conditioning. The number doesn't matter, but it's large. Got any idea
how much heat is radiated by an unshaded blacktop driveway? Which magical,
easily replaceable and 100% clean source to you get electricity from?


Of course I care. But that does not necessarily translate into more
laws, more bureacrats and more taxes.

JMHO

John
I've cut down many tree's on my property. However I've also spent a
couple a thousand on difficult trees. Seems difficult trees increase as
I age ))

Bill

--
Garden Shade Zone 5 in a Japanese Jungle manner.
FAIR USE NOTICE: This may contain copyrighted ((C) ) material the use of
which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright
owner. Such material is made available for educational purposes, to
advance understanding of human rights, democracy, scientific, moral,
ethical, and social justice issues, etc. It is believed that this
constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided
for in Title 17 U.S.C. section 107 of the US Copyright Law. This
material is distributed without profit.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"John Bachman" wrote in message
...


Your town has an ordinance that requires a homeowner to get a permit
to cut down a tree on his own property? Yikes!


Not a totally bad idea, for two reasons:

1) People sometimes think they can cut down huge trees without the help of
a
professional. But, there's a certain order in which to do these things, to
assure that falling branches don't cause problems. To use the analogy of a
building permit, which most people accept, why not have a permit process
for
removing trees? Let's face it: A significant portion of the population is
just plain stupid. Sounds like a good idea to have someone knowledgable
stop
by, interview the budding lumberjack, and make sure they have a proper
plan
in place for 1000 lb chunks of falling wood. I also think it would be wise
if the permit required the lumberjack to pay every single penny of a
neighbor's property damage. Override their deductible, in other words.
Most
decent people would offer this, but some people aren't decent.

2) A library is a place where OTHER people go to read about trees and
plants. So, we have people who MIGHT want to take down a tree for the
wrong
reasons, after doing absolutely zero research. Example: When I moved to my
new house last September, the old lady across the street came over and
said
EXACTLY this: "Hi...my name is Helen. Let me tell you about that stupid
tree
of mine, before it upsets you". Her "problem" is an ancient sycamore which
has the nerve to drop bark on her lawn all the time. At certain times of
year, it blows across the street to my property. I don't mind. That's what
sycamores do, like lobsters moulting. But, she is convinced that the tree
is
diseased, and that 3 tree services and a guy from the township are
withholding information from her. She's probably telling other people that
*I* am in error, too, by telling her that the tree is normal.

Here are two more reasons for some control over removal of trees.

One of my neighbors is completely nature-phobic. Anything that moves or
isn't produced in a factory is a threat. She had her entire SLOPING back
yard clear cut and then didn't plant anything for 8 years. Periodically she
would have the boyfriend/husband spray the slope with Round-up. Sure, it
was her yard and I guess I didn't HAVE to look at it. The real problem came
with the erosion caused by removing all the trees without a plan to
remediate the erosion. Eventually a very large tree (too large for them to
remove themselves) was undercut and fell, crashing into and breaking off two
of my trees. Both trees were on the edge of a drainage ditch. Between the
erosion from their property and the loss of the trees in my yard, the ditch
evolved from a shallow canal to an 9 foot deep crevasse. Now other trees
are being undercut and are about to fall, causing a downward spiral of
events that threaten our property and theirs.

The other reason for regulating the removal of trees is that some people
feel that cutting a tree down and leaving a big stump is fine. A number of
our neighbors have cut trees down in their front yards, leaving large stumps
sticking two to three feet out of the ground. It looks like hell. If you
are going to remove a tree, don't start a job you can't finish.

Vox Humana wrote:
Here are two more reasons for some control over removal of trees.

One of my neighbors is completely nature-phobic. Anything that moves or
isn't produced in a factory is a threat. She had her entire SLOPING back
yard clear cut and then didn't plant anything for 8 years. Periodically
she
would have the boyfriend/husband spray the slope with Round-up. Sure, it
was her yard and I guess I didn't HAVE to look at it. The real problem
came
with the erosion caused by removing all the trees without a plan to
remediate the erosion. Eventually a very large tree (too large for them
to
remove themselves) was undercut and fell, crashing into and breaking off
two
of my trees. Both trees were on the edge of a drainage ditch. Between
the
erosion from their property and the loss of the trees in my yard, the
ditch
evolved from a shallow canal to an 9 foot deep crevasse. Now other trees
are being undercut and are about to fall, causing a downward spiral of
events that threaten our property and theirs.



Better watch out. The people who don't want to defend their position that
*they* should be allowed to cut down *their* trees whenever they want will
accuse you of taking it to the extreme with this real life story that's
repeated all too often in areas where people are allowed to do whatever they
want to trees on land they own.

--
Warren H.

==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
What's on TV? See the new fall network schedules online:
http://www.holzemville.com/mall/tele.../fall2005.html

"John Bachman" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:33:41 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"John Bachman" wrote in message
. ..


Your town has an ordinance that requires a homeowner to get a permit
to cut down a tree on his own property? Yikes!


Not a totally bad idea, for two reasons:

1) People sometimes think they can cut down huge trees without the help of
a
professional. But, there's a certain order in which to do these things, to
assure that falling branches don't cause problems. To use the analogy of a
building permit, which most people accept, why not have a permit process
for
removing trees? Let's face it: A significant portion of the population is
just plain stupid. Sounds like a good idea to have someone knowledgable
stop
by, interview the budding lumberjack, and make sure they have a proper
plan
in place for 1000 lb chunks of falling wood.

Requiring the taxpayers to hire a tree nanny because some people are
too dumb to know how to safely cut down a tree can be extended to the
myriad of things that people are dumb about. Follow that logic and we
have a town hall full of tree nannies, snowblowing nannies, water
garden nannies, etc. Pretty soon you need to pass a test before you
can buy a Felco pruning tool.

Got a problem with building permits, too?



I also think it would be wise
if the permit required the lumberjack to pay every single penny of a
neighbor's property damage. Override their deductible, in other words.
Most
decent people would offer this, but some people aren't decent.

I think that we have plenty of lawyers at the ready with liability
suits. No need for additional permit requirements to enforce
accountablity.

That's silly. Nobody should even have to pick up the phone and call a lawyer
to retrieve their $250 or $500 deductible. There's a simpler way, and it
already exists. Make the permit a legal contract. The local judge can
introduce you to jail food if you mouth off and refuse to pay. This sort of
thing happens with a fair amount of regularity, right in the same courtroom
as traffic tickets.


2) A library is a place where OTHER people go to read about trees and
plants. So, we have people who MIGHT want to take down a tree for the
wrong
reasons, after doing absolutely zero research. Example: When I moved to my
new house last September, the old lady across the street came over and
said
EXACTLY this: "Hi...my name is Helen. Let me tell you about that stupid
tree
of mine, before it upsets you". Her "problem" is an ancient sycamore which
has the nerve to drop bark on her lawn all the time. At certain times of
year, it blows across the street to my property. I don't mind. That's what
sycamores do, like lobsters moulting. But, she is convinced that the tree
is
diseased, and that 3 tree services and a guy from the township are
withholding information from her. She's probably telling other people that
*I* am in error, too, by telling her that the tree is normal.

So, why not have someone from the town stop by, find out her reasons for
removing the tree, and if the problem is "mess" or "maintenance", see if
the
neighbors like the tree enough to pitch in now and then? If not, give her
the permit. My crazy neighbor has a lawn guy who handles leaves & bark,
but
if she didn't, I'd be happy to wander over there and rake up the bark.
Tree
saved, problem solved.


Yup, ignorant people do dumb things. "Momma always said, 'stupid is
as stupid does'" - Forrest Gump I am not willing to pay taxes to keep
the ignorant from doing what they do, I just cannot afford that much.

Your local building inspectors probably sit on their tails for a few hours a
week. Let them do it. You're already paying them.


Why should this matter to you? A big shade tree is worth however many tons
of air conditioning. The number doesn't matter, but it's large. Got any
idea
how much heat is radiated by an unshaded blacktop driveway? Which magical,
easily replaceable and 100% clean source to you get electricity from?


Of course I care. But that does not necessarily translate into more
laws, more bureacrats and more taxes.

JMHO

John

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:08:11 -0400, William Wagner
wrote:

In article ,
John Bachman wrote:
snipped my previous postings
I've cut down many tree's on my property. However I've also spent a
couple a thousand on difficult trees. Seems difficult trees increase as
I age ))

Bill


Likewise, Bill. I am about to contract to have a tree removed for the
first time in my life. It is a 100 foot white pine surrounded by
wires and obstacles. It will cost me more than a grand.

All because I want to give the renegade sycamore that sprouted nearby
some room to do it's thing.

John

John Bachman wrote:
On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:33:41 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
[...]

Yup, ignorant people do dumb things. "Momma always said, 'stupid is
as stupid does'" - Forrest Gump I am not willing to pay taxes to keep
the ignorant from doing what they do, I just cannot afford that much.

What you really can't afford is the effects of stupidity on you.



Why should this matter to you? A big shade tree is worth however many tons
of air conditioning. The number doesn't matter, but it's large. Got any idea
how much heat is radiated by an unshaded blacktop driveway? Which magical,
easily replaceable and 100% clean source to you get electricity from?



Of course I care. But that does not necessarily translate into more
laws, more bureacrats and more taxes.

JMHO

John


Yeah, yeah, taxes is bad, but if some private outfit charges you "fees"
for the same service, it's good.

I've _never_ understood that logic. The only thing I care about is how
much I get for my money. Private bureaucracies (a.k.a "corporations")
are at least as inefficient as public ones, and there's the added
disdavantage that we don't get a chance to throw the rascals out every
four years. And private bureaucracies want me to pay extra ("profits")
just so some bozos can get some unearned income ("dividends") - now
that's a real good use of my cash!

John Bachman wrote:
[...] I am about to contract to have a tree removed for the
first time in my life. It is a 100 foot white pine surrounded by

Ouch!

Who gets the wood? If done right, there will be sawlogs available form
that tree.

All because I want to give the renegade sycamore that sprouted nearby
some room to do it's thing.

John


Now that's balancing one tree's need against another tree's desire... :-)

Vox Humana wrote:
[...]

Here are two more reasons for some control over removal of trees.

One of my neighbors is completely nature-phobic. Anything that moves or
isn't produced in a factory is a threat. She had her entire SLOPING back
yard clear cut and then didn't plant anything for 8 years. Periodically she
would have the boyfriend/husband spray the slope with Round-up. Sure, it
was her yard and I guess I didn't HAVE to look at it. The real problem came
with the erosion caused by removing all the trees without a plan to
remediate the erosion. Eventually a very large tree (too large for them to
remove themselves) was undercut and fell, crashing into and breaking off two
of my trees. Both trees were on the edge of a drainage ditch. Between the
erosion from their property and the loss of the trees in my yard, the ditch
evolved from a shallow canal to an 9 foot deep crevasse. Now other trees
are being undercut and are about to fall, causing a downward spiral of
events that threaten our property and theirs.
[...]

I think you and/or the municpality have grounds for a lawsuit there -
the grounds that have been washed away by the rain...

I doubt their insurance will cover the damage they've caused; so go
after them. Bozos like that should not be allowed to thrive.

presley wrote:
Well, it's not always a neighbor. The backyard gardener show on PBS
had a segment recently in a which a straight-line windstorm had
upended an enormous 100 year old oak in the middle of summer. He
had an entire shade garden under the tree, which was now exposed to
the blazing sun of an Oklahoma summer. He was also concerned about
transplanting, and ended up making some temporary shades with
laths, shade cloth, etc. so that he could carry the plants through
until cooler weather in the fall, when he could transplant them
with more success.

Do you mean "Gardening by the Yard"? It is on HGTV.

--

Travis in Shoreline (just North of Seattle) Washington
USDA Zone 8
Sunset Zone 5


"Toni" wrote in message
...
[whining mode] New neighbors next door- to the west.
Their first week in they've cut down a *beautiful* 30 year old
Black Olive tree that shaded my entire front garden- full of shade
plants. Anthuriums, calatheas, ferns, teeny little gems that I had
cherished for years in containers before putting them in the
ground.
That garden is only one year old- and now I am having to
reorganize the whole darn thing. Plants are wilting faster than I
can transplant them.

And I thought our town had an ordinance against this sort of thing
without a
permit- guess that explains the city trucks I've seen stopping to
take photos of the stump three times now.
Would I be evil to hope they get fined?

And I know about Black Olive maintenance issues- I have one. But
had they bothered to live here a while before killing trees they'd
have noticed that
*we* always keep their walkways pressure cleaned- husband just
can't seem to
stop once he gets going.
Not feeling too good about my new neighbors right now. [/whining
mode]


--
Toni
South Florida USA
Zone 10b
http://ww.cearbhaill.com

In article ,
says...
So freedom is the right to adversely affect the lives of others just because
you happen to be standing on property you own?

BS! Almost everything we do has a beneficial affect on some and an
adverse affect on others. We have zoning laws to keep a business from
going up in a residential neighborhood. We have noise and junk
abatement laws. And that's about as much interference with property
rights as there should be. If I want to chop down all my trees and
plant pink flamingos, that's my business.


The situations need to be considered on their own merits, and in
whole. The ownership of the land involved may be a factor in who can
initiate consideration of the situation. It may, in some situations, be the
most important consideration. But it shouldn't always be the most important

And folks say that socialism is dead :-).

--
BNSF = Build Now, Seep Forever

"lgb" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...
So freedom is the right to adversely affect the lives of others just
because
you happen to be standing on property you own?

BS! Almost everything we do has a beneficial affect on some and an
adverse affect on others. We have zoning laws to keep a business from
going up in a residential neighborhood. We have noise and junk
abatement laws. And that's about as much interference with property
rights as there should be. If I want to chop down all my trees and
plant pink flamingos, that's my business.

Would it bother you if your neighbor across the street parked an old car on
his lawn, left it there to rust for 5 years, and for whatever reason, there
was absolutely no way you could block the view using plants, fence, etc?