I have a cherry tree with a three inch (≈ 80 mm) trunk, and I want to
landscape the ground upward around the trunk a couple of feet (≈ 60 cm).

I just learned about Stem Griddling Roots (SGR)
http://www.extension.umn.edu/distrib...es/DD7501.html
videos
http://www.righttreerightplace.com/planting/howTo.asp#

Although this isn't a tree fresh from the nursery, raising the ground
level may give the roots an opportunity for SGR. Are there some
precautions I should take? Should I surround the trunk with something?
If so what could it be? It would have to accommodate the trunk growth
yet prevent the roots from encroaching.

--
*********************
* Nehmo Sergheyev *
*********************

Nehmo Sergheyev wrote:
I have a cherry tree with a three inch (≈ 80 mm) trunk, and I
want to landscape the ground upward around the trunk a couple of
feet (≈ 60 cm).

I just learned about Stem Griddling Roots (SGR)
http://www.extension.umn.edu/distrib...es/DD7501.html
videos
http://www.righttreerightplace.com/planting/howTo.asp#

Although this isn't a tree fresh from the nursery, raising the
ground level may give the roots an opportunity for SGR. Are there
some precautions I should take? Should I surround the trunk with
something?
If so what could it be? It would have to accommodate the trunk
growth
yet prevent the roots from encroaching.

Do you mean you are going to put a couple of feet of soil on top of the
ground where the tree is planted? That will kill the tree for sure.

--

Travis in Shoreline (just North of Seattle) Washington
USDA Zone 8b
Sunset Zone 5

- Travis -
Do you mean you are going to put a couple of feet of soil on top of
the
ground where the tree is planted? That will kill the tree for sure.

- Nehmo -
Yes, that's what's going to happen. I didn't know it would kill the
tree. Are you sure? Why would it?

--
*********************
* Nehmo Sergheyev *
*********************

Wrapping black plastic around the area might stop growth by excluding light.
"Nehmo Sergheyev" wrote in message
...
- Travis -
Do you mean you are going to put a couple of feet of soil on top of
the
ground where the tree is planted? That will kill the tree for sure.

- Nehmo -
Yes, that's what's going to happen. I didn't know it would kill the
tree. Are you sure? Why would it?

--
*********************
* Nehmo Sergheyev *
*********************

Most feeder roots for a tree are in the top 6 -12 inches of the soil. Many
soil nutrients remain in the top few inches of soil due to the inability of
the molecules to move through soil. In fact, if potassium and phosphorus
containing fertilizers are not dug into the soil about 6 inches, they are
unavailable to the plant. The roots also require air to function properly.
It is the moist air between particles of soil that allow moisture to be
taken up by the root system. Most people think of roots as something that
sucks up water like a straw but that is not how water molecules are
transfered into plant tissue.

By piling two feet of dirt on top of a trees established root system, you
basically suffocate and starve the tree before it has time to put new roots
up to the surface where they can function properly. It is common
horticultural practice that the soil level around established trees NEVER be
altered. This is why you see some trees with a deep well around the base.
In that instance someone has needed to raise the soil level and has
protected the tree by keeping the soil level adjacent to the tree at the
lower level while the rest of the land can be regraded to the new higher
level.

Maybe this would be a solution for you? I didn't catch why you wanted to
raise the soil level but putting a well around the trunk of your tree will
allow you to raise the soil levels in the rest of your garden higher. Just
remember to allow enough space between the well and the trunk so that the
surface feeder roots have enough area to prevent suffocation.

From: "Nehmo Sergheyev"
Newsgroups: alt.forestry,rec.gardens,sci.bio.botany
Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 21:49:04 GMT
Subject: Stem Griddling Roots After Raising Ground Level?

- Travis -
Do you mean you are going to put a couple of feet of soil on top of
the
ground where the tree is planted? That will kill the tree for sure.

- Nehmo -
Yes, that's what's going to happen. I didn't know it would kill the
tree. Are you sure? Why would it?

Nehmo Sergheyev wrote:
- Travis -
Do you mean you are going to put a couple of feet of soil on top of
the
ground where the tree is planted? That will kill the tree for sure.

- Nehmo -
Yes, that's what's going to happen. I didn't know it would kill the
tree. Are you sure? Why would it?


If it's deep enough, and/or covers enough of the root area, you'll
essentially suffocate the tree. There also could be other problems with
bare soil stacked against the trunk.

Just as the article you linked to earlier noted that stem girdling roots
can be more of a problem with certain types of trees, those other
factors will affect different types of trees to a different extent as
well.

It's usually possible to create some kind of raised bed near a tree. How
much area it covers, and how deep it can be depends on a lot of
variables. What you seem to be describing sounds to be more than nearly
any tree could tolerate. If you need to change the grade that much, you
might as well count on loosing the tree.

You may want to consult with an arborist not just to confirm what's
being said here, but to possibly offer alternative suggestions for
whatever it is that you're ultimately trying to accomplish.

--
Warren H.

==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
Compare the newest tax preparation software apps:
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You may be able to raise the grade and protect the tree with a tree
well.

http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/hortcult.../treewells.htm

Nehmo Sergheyev wrote:
- Travis -
Do you mean you are going to put a couple of feet of soil on top
of the ground where the tree is planted? That will kill the tree
for sure.

- Nehmo -
Yes, that's what's going to happen. I didn't know it would kill the
tree. Are you sure? Why would it?

You will smother it. The roots need oxygen. If you don't believe me
ask your county extension agent.

--

Travis in Shoreline (just North of Seattle) Washington
USDA Zone 8b
Sunset Zone 5

- Nehmo -
I have a cherry tree with a three inch (≈ mm) trunk, and I want to
landscape the ground upward around the trunk a couple of feet (≈ 60
cm).

I just learned about Stem Griddling Roots (SGR)
http://www.extension.umn.edu/distrib...es/DD7501.html
videos
http://www.righttreerightplace.com/planting/howTo.asp#

Although this isn't a tree fresh from the nursery, raising the ground
level may give the roots an opportunity for SGR. Are there some
precautions I should take? Should I surround the trunk with something?
If so what could it be? It would have to accommodate the trunk growth
yet prevent the roots from encroaching.

Oops, it's Stem Girdling Roots (SGR or SGRs). You see, hard to believe,
but even *I* make errors.

--
*********************
* Nehmo Sergheyev *
*********************

Hi Nehmo,

Maybe these sites will help to make it clear.
Misperceptions about trees:
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/MG089

How tree roots grow:
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/WO017

Root collar and winding roots:
http://www1.br.cc.va.us/murray/Arbor...am/default.htm

Root flare problems that lead to death of tree from covering the base of the tree:
http://www.tlcfortrees.info/planting%20depth.htm
http://hort.ifas.ufl.edu/woody/planting/nosoil.htm
http://hort.ifas.ufl.edu/woody/planting/nosoil.htm

Newt

Nehmo Sergheyev wrote:
I have a cherry tree with a three inch (≈ mm) trunk, and I want to
landscape the ground upward around the trunk a couple of feet (
60 cm).- I just learned about Stem Griddling Roots (SGR)

Don't worry about Stem Girdling, worry about suffocation. Roots need to
be near air. That is why they grow along the surface rather than
straight down. Raising the soil level will suffocate the roots. Also,
bark on roots is designed to tolerate being under the soil. The bark on
the trunk is not and will either adapt or rot. Usually it rots.

Most people also forget that roots require oxygen. Raising the soil
level will suffocate roots. Often the effects of construction damage are
not immediately apparent. At one place the live oaks did not die from a
2-foot grade change until 10 years later.

If you built a retaining wall about 4 or 5 feet away from the trunk so
the fill didn't come up to the trunk, the trunk would be OK. Since the
tree is young, it might adapt to having the roots covered, especially if
you prune the top of the tree considerably to compensate for the
effective loss of roots. You many also have to install drainage tile if
the tree well would likely fill with water. This might not save the
tree, but it would give it a fighting chance.

--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA
http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman

On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 10:24:39 -0500, Stephen Henning
wrote:

Nehmo Sergheyev wrote:
I have a cherry tree with a three inch (≈ mm) trunk, and I want to
landscape the ground upward around the trunk a couple of feet (
60 cm).- I just learned about Stem Griddling Roots (SGR)

Don't worry about Stem Girdling, worry about suffocation. Roots need to
be near air. That is why they grow along the surface rather than
straight down. Raising the soil level will suffocate the roots. Also,
bark on roots is designed to tolerate being under the soil. The bark on
the trunk is not and will either adapt or rot. Usually it rots.

Most people also forget that roots require oxygen. Raising the soil
level will suffocate roots. Often the effects of construction damage are
not immediately apparent. At one place the live oaks did not die from a
2-foot grade change until 10 years later.

If you built a retaining wall about 4 or 5 feet away from the trunk so
the fill didn't come up to the trunk, the trunk would be OK. Since the
tree is young, it might adapt to having the roots covered, especially if
you prune the top of the tree considerably to compensate for the
effective loss of roots. You many also have to install drainage tile if
the tree well would likely fill with water. This might not save the
tree, but it would give it a fighting chance.
I disagree with the suggestion to prune the top severely. Leaves make
energy, and you tree will need energy to recover from the stress of
root loss. Pruning out live tissue will reduce this energy production
while requiring energy expenditures to recover from the pruning.
Build the well and then, if branches die back over time, prune them
out later..

Keith Babberney
ISA Certified Arborist

Treedweller wrote:

I disagree with the suggestion to prune the top severely. Leaves make
energy, and you tree will need energy to recover from the stress of
root loss. Pruning out live tissue will reduce this energy production
while requiring energy expenditures to recover from the pruning.
Build the well and then, if branches die back over time, prune them
out later..

But leaves also use water. As roots die, the top usually dies back to
what the roots can support. So it really doesn't matter if you prune
the top, it just is a choice of pruning out live material or dead
material. But if you wait to prune out dead material, more of the tree
will die because energy will have been wasted on branches that
eventually died. The energy that is produced by the leaves is stored in
the roots. If the roots are dying, then they won't store as much energy.

I girdled 3 walnut trees that were killing my rhododendrons. I was
shocked that there was enough energy stored in the roots to keep the
trees alive for 3 years. Then they died the next spring. So,in that
case, I needed more top to kill the roots. The top I had took 3 years
and I hadn't pruned these trees at all.
--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
Visit my Rhododendron and Azalea web pages at:
http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman/rhody.html
Also visit the Rhododendron and Azalea Bookstore at:
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Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA Zone 6

I agree with Stephen. If you reduce the amount of roots that are feeding the top growth, then you will have more idieback. For example, when root pruning houseplants to keep in the same sized pot, the top of the plant is pruned to accomodate the diminished roots.

Newt

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 03:17:46 +0000, Newt
wrote:



I agree with Stephen. If you reduce the amount of roots that are
feeding the top growth, then you will have more idieback. For example,
when root pruning houseplants to keep in the same sized pot, the top of
the plant is pruned to accomodate the diminished roots.

Newt
I can't say I've done the experiments, but I've been to classes and
read industry publications stating that you should not prune the top
of a transplant until the bottom has a chance to get established.
Myabe houseplants are different than trees, maybe you've both fallen
victim to an old myth, or maybe the current industry-produced research
is wrong. I leave it to you to decide, but I won't prune the tops of
trees to compensate for root loss.

Keith Babberney
ISA Certified Arborist
ISA Certified Tree Worker/Climber Specialist