I have a large old apple tree in my back yard. I'm guessing it's ~100 years
old based on the neighborhood and the number of growth rings on a smaller
tree near it that I had to cut down a few years ago. Several years ago,
someone butchered it - they cut all of the main branches back to about 15
feet from the trunk. Their reason - they didn't like how it sprawled all
over. I don't know how badly this shocked the tree. I've been gently pruning
it every year, trying to remove the vertical suckers and open up the crown,
with a fairly good rate of sucess. This year is it loaded with hundreds of
apples. So, anyhow, my questions

1) I noticed this hole on one of the branches. The opening is a bit more
then in inch in diameter, and you can see wood shavings that have fallen out
of the hole. What would make a hole like this in a tree? I can't see
anything in the hole, and don't know how deep it goes - I don't really want
to stick my fingers in it :-)

http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2008/...s/DSCF2788.JPG
http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2008/...s/DSCF2789.JPG

2) See how the bark is peeling? The top of the branch is dried and
splitting. Is this branch dying, and should I take any action at this time,
like cut it off or try to save it? The other branches do not exhibit this
behavior.

http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2008/...s/DSCF2794.JPG
http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2008/...s/DSCF2790.JPG
http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2008/...s/DSCF2792.JPG
http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2008/...s/DSCF2791.JPG

the branch is dead. a woodpecker is drilling in maybe for a nest? google for more
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~iany/p...cker_holes.jpg

you can cut the branch. But I stopped attacks (little woodpecker holes) on an old
apple tree by using a brush to get rid of lose bark that hides insects. I scrubbed
the whole trunk and main branches. then I used thinned white latex to paint them.
all attacks stopped. within 3 years you really couldnt tell I had painted the tree
at all.

On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 20:21:38 -0700, "Zootal" wrote:
1) I noticed this hole on one of the branches. The opening is a bit more
then in inch in diameter, and you can see wood shavings that have fallen out
of the hole. What would make a hole like this in a tree? I can't see
anything in the hole, and don't know how deep it goes - I don't really want
to stick my fingers in it :-)

http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2008/...s/DSCF2788.JPG
http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2008/...s/DSCF2789.JPG

2) See how the bark is peeling? The top of the branch is dried and
splitting. Is this branch dying, and should I take any action at this time,
like cut it off or try to save it? The other branches do not exhibit this
behavior.

http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2008/...s/DSCF2794.JPG
http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2008/...s/DSCF2790.JPG
http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2008/...s/DSCF2792.JPG
http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2008/...s/DSCF2791.JPG

"beccabunga" wrote in message
...

'Zootal[_3_ Wrote:
;797955']I have a large old apple tree in my back yard. I'm guessing
it's ~100 years
old based on the neighborhood and the number of growth rings on a
smaller
tree near it that I had to cut down a few years ago. Several years ago,

someone butchered it - they cut all of the main branches back to about
15
feet from the trunk. Their reason - they didn't like how it sprawled
all
over. I don't know how badly this shocked the tree. I've been gently
pruning
it every year, trying to remove the vertical suckers and open up the
crown,
with a fairly good rate of sucess. This year is it loaded with hundreds
of
apples. So, anyhow, my questions

1) I noticed this hole on one of the branches. The opening is a bit
more
then in inch in diameter, and you can see wood shavings that have
fallen out
of the hole. What would make a hole like this in a tree? I can't see
anything in the hole, and don't know how deep it goes - I don't really
want
to stick my fingers in it :-)

http://tinyurl.com/3qv8b5
http://tinyurl.com/4m7vg4
It appears to have bored into dead wood, and by location and size I would
suspect carpenter bee. They are readily viewable "hanging" around their
bores. If the hole hooks through the center of the limb, I would say
definitely carpenter bee.

The hole looks like the one produced by the goat moth caterpillar in Europe - and I believe there is a similar moth in the US called a carpenter moth. They are usually regarded as pests as they can kill trees. I think if you only have the one hole in an old tree, you probably don't have to worry too much.

"Don Staples" (Salvage Hog)

It appears to have bored into dead wood, and by location and size I would
suspect carpenter bee. They are readily viewable "hanging" around their
bores. If the hole hooks through the center of the limb, I would say
definitely carpenter bee.

First, with the bee inside the wood proves structure is not dead. The wood
is symplastless for sure, dead, no way.

Carpenter ants for one. The tree, when wounded, sets boundaries in which
the ants respect. They go to wood that was present at the time of wounding
and make galleries. The galleries control the environment inside the tree
and wood products. They keep moisture low and that is to the disadvantage
of the decay pathogen. So, they stall rot in trees and in wood products in
your house as well. When products are made from trees with many wounds, the
stage is set for termites and carpenter ants. They know that wood is
beginning to rot. How do they know? Anyway when flush cuts are made on
trees such as conifers, with resin ducts, the area around the flush cut
becomes very resinated (sic?) and resist penetration of wood preservatives.
When the resins breakdown when the product is in use, the wood is subject to
decay because the trees protection (resins) has come to an end and there are
no preservatives in that area. I am not a wood products expert but I do
understand trees and their products. In our area when you see the dust its
either carpenter bees or carpenter ants. Carpenter bees dust is more
uniform I believe. May not be ants but if it is - they are good for the
tree! The wood peckers come for the carpenter bees in our house. They
found the young bees. They leave long shivers of wood and chips. Carpenter
bees do live in symplastless wood. No other single living organism house
more walks of life than a tree. The only time the wood is dead is when it
is ashes after fire. Always something alive living in the and part of the
wood. Unless torched!


--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Tree Biologist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.
Some people will buy products they do not understand and not buy books that
will give them understanding.

"symplastless" wrote in message
. ..

"Don Staples" (Salvage Hog)

It appears to have bored into dead wood, and by location and size I would
suspect carpenter bee. They are readily viewable "hanging" around their
bores. If the hole hooks through the center of the limb, I would say
definitely carpenter bee.

First, with the bee inside the wood proves structure is not dead. The
wood is symplastless for sure, dead, no way.

Carpenter ants for one. The tree, when wounded, sets boundaries in which
the ants respect. They go to wood that was present at the time of
wounding
and make galleries. The galleries control the environment inside the tree
and wood products. They keep moisture low and that is to the disadvantage
of the decay pathogen. So, they stall rot in trees and in wood products
in
your house as well. When products are made from trees with many wounds,
the
stage is set for termites and carpenter ants. They know that wood is
beginning to rot. How do they know? Anyway when flush cuts are made on
trees such as conifers, with resin ducts, the area around the flush cut
becomes very resinated (sic?) and resist penetration of wood
preservatives.
When the resins breakdown when the product is in use, the wood is subject
to
decay because the trees protection (resins) has come to an end and there
are
no preservatives in that area. I am not a wood products expert but I do
understand trees and their products. In our area when you see the dust
its
either carpenter bees or carpenter ants. Carpenter bees dust is more
uniform I believe. May not be ants but if it is - they are good for the
tree! The wood peckers come for the carpenter bees in our house. They
found the young bees. They leave long shivers of wood and chips.
Carpenter bees do live in symplastless wood. No other single living
organism house more walks of life than a tree. The only time the wood is
dead is when it is ashes after fire. Always something alive living in the
and part of the wood. Unless torched!

Dead wood, dead as your intellect. Maggots do not give life to a corpes.
Nor do ideas give life to your befuddled thinking.

--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Buttercup
http://hfome.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treefdictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding
us that we are not the boss.
Some people will buy products they do not understand and not buy books
that will give them understanding.

"Don Staples" wrote in message
omsupplyinc...
"symplastless" wrote in message
. ..

"Don Staples" (Salvage Hog)

It appears to have bored into dead wood, and by location and size I
would suspect carpenter bee. They are readily viewable "hanging" around
their bores. If the hole hooks through the center of the limb, I would
say definitely carpenter bee.

First, with the bee inside the wood proves structure is not dead. The
wood is symplastless for sure, dead, no way.

Carpenter ants for one. The tree, when wounded, sets boundaries in which
the ants respect. They go to wood that was present at the time of
wounding
and make galleries. The galleries control the environment inside the
tree
and wood products. They keep moisture low and that is to the
disadvantage
of the decay pathogen. So, they stall rot in trees and in wood products
in
your house as well. When products are made from trees with many wounds,
the
stage is set for termites and carpenter ants. They know that wood is
beginning to rot. How do they know? Anyway when flush cuts are made on
trees such as conifers, with resin ducts, the area around the flush cut
becomes very resinated (sic?) and resist penetration of wood
preservatives.
When the resins breakdown when the product is in use, the wood is subject
to
decay because the trees protection (resins) has come to an end and there
are
no preservatives in that area. I am not a wood products expert but I do
understand trees and their products. In our area when you see the dust
its
either carpenter bees or carpenter ants. Carpenter bees dust is more
uniform I believe. May not be ants but if it is - they are good for the
tree! The wood peckers come for the carpenter bees in our house. They
found the young bees. They leave long shivers of wood and chips.
Carpenter bees do live in symplastless wood. No other single living
organism house more walks of life than a tree. The only time the wood is
dead is when it is ashes after fire. Always something alive living in
the and part of the wood. Unless torched!

Dead wood, dead as your intellect. Maggots do not give life to a corpes.
Nor do ideas give life to your befuddled thinking.

Don Staples - Consulting Salvage Hog
http://www.livingston.net/dstaples/Services/salvage.htm


For starters, the fungi that infect non-woody roots of trees and form
mycorrhizae, are the base of the food web. It thrives in nurse logs? Up to
35% of a nurse log can be fungi cells alone. You call that dead? How do
you compare that to maggots? I do not see the association?


--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Tree Biologist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.
Some people will buy products they do not understand and not buy books that
will give them understanding.

"Don Staples" wrote in message
omsupplyinc...
"symplastless" wrote in message
. ..

"Don Staples" (Salvage Hog)

It appears to have bored into dead wood, and by location and size I
would suspect carpenter bee. They are readily viewable "hanging" around
their bores. If the hole hooks through the center of the limb, I would
say definitely carpenter bee.

First, with the bee inside the wood proves structure is not dead. The
wood is symplastless for sure, dead, no way.

Carpenter ants for one. The tree, when wounded, sets boundaries in which
the ants respect. They go to wood that was present at the time of
wounding
and make galleries. The galleries control the environment inside the
tree
and wood products. They keep moisture low and that is to the
disadvantage
of the decay pathogen. So, they stall rot in trees and in wood products
in
your house as well. When products are made from trees with many wounds,
the
stage is set for termites and carpenter ants. They know that wood is
beginning to rot. How do they know? Anyway when flush cuts are made on
trees such as conifers, with resin ducts, the area around the flush cut
becomes very resinated (sic?) and resist penetration of wood
preservatives.
When the resins breakdown when the product is in use, the wood is subject
to
decay because the trees protection (resins) has come to an end and there
are
no preservatives in that area. I am not a wood products expert but I do
understand trees and their products. In our area when you see the dust
its
either carpenter bees or carpenter ants. Carpenter bees dust is more
uniform I believe. May not be ants but if it is - they are good for the
tree! The wood peckers come for the carpenter bees in our house. They
found the young bees. They leave long shivers of wood and chips.
Carpenter bees do live in symplastless wood. No other single living
organism house more walks of life than a tree. The only time the wood is
dead is when it is ashes after fire. Always something alive living in
the and part of the wood. Unless torched!

Dead wood, dead as your intellect. Maggots do not give life to a corpes.
Nor do ideas give life to your befuddled thinking.

Don Staples - Consulting Salvage Hog
http://www.livingston.net/dstaples/Services/salvage.htm

Don Maser et al. (1979) reported that 178 vertebrates use logs in the Blue
Mountains 14 amphibians and reptiles, 115 birds, and 49 mammals; they
tabulated use by log decay classes for each species. Logs are considered
important in early successional stages as well as in old- growth forests.
The persistence of large logs has special importance in providing wildlife
with habitat continuity over long periods and through major disturbances
(Franklin, Cromack, Kermit, et al. others, 1981). Are all of these as
worthless as you claim maggots to be and just better if considered dead?


--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Tree Biologist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.
Some people will buy products they do not understand and not buy books that
will give them understanding.

"symplastless" wrote in message
. ..
"Don Staples" wrote in message
omsupplyinc...
"symplastless" wrote in message
. ..

Don Maser et al. (1979) reported that 178 vertebrates use logs in the
Blue Mountains 14 amphibians and reptiles, 115 birds, and 49 mammals; they
tabulated use by log decay classes for each species. Logs are considered
important in early successional stages as well as in old- growth forests.
The persistence of large logs has special importance in providing wildlife
with habitat continuity over long periods and through major disturbances
(Franklin, Cromack, Kermit, et al. others, 1981). Are all of these as
worthless as you claim maggots to be and just better if considered dead?

Really not much on cognitive thought, are you, deadwood? Show me where I
said maggots are worthless, or show me where a corpse is alive after maggots
have invaded. Better still show me how dead wood can be revived into a
living structure. Not the destructive elements breaking in down into it
basic materials, in your befuddle mind fish in the sea make the sea alive,
termites make dead wood alive, and your rediculous dictionary makes you
alive.

Or just explain how any of your above paragraph indicates that dead wood is
not dead, but alive. Use some source other than your dumb ass dictionary.

Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Butterci[
http://home.ccils.org/~treeman
and www.treesdictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding
us that we are not the boss.
Some people will buy products they do not understand and not buy books
that will give them understanding.

On Jun 13, 2:27�pm, "Don Staples" wrote:
"beccabunga" wrote in message

...





'Zootal[_3_ Wrote:
;797955']I have a large old apple tree in my back yard. I'm guessing
it's ~100 years
old based on the neighborhood and the number of growth rings on a
smaller
tree near it that I had to cut down a few years ago. Several years ago,

someone butchered it - they cut all of the main branches back to about
15
feet from the trunk. Their reason - they didn't like how it sprawled
all
over. I don't know how badly this shocked the tree. I've been gently
pruning
it every year, trying to remove the vertical suckers and open up the
crown,
with a fairly good rate of sucess. This year is it loaded with hundreds
of
apples. So, anyhow, my questions

1) I noticed this hole on one of the branches. The opening is a bit
more
then in inch in diameter, and you can see wood shavings that have
fallen out
of the hole. What would make a hole like this in a tree? I can't see
anything in the hole, and don't know how deep it goes - I don't really
want
to stick my fingers in it :-)

http://tinyurl.com/3qv8b5
http://tinyurl.com/4m7vg4

It appears to have bored into dead wood, and by location and size I would
suspect carpenter bee. �They are readily viewable "hanging" around their
bores. �If the hole hooks through the center of the limb, I would say
definitely carpenter bee.

Definitely not a carpenter bee hole. Carpenter bees make much smaller
and neater entrance holes, perfectly round, about a 1/2" diameter,
just large enough to admit the bee.... deeper inside they excavate
galleries and chambers.

Woodpeckers don't make holes like that either, they need a much larger
diameter to make a deep hole... woodpeckers nest in vertical wood and
much higher.

That hole looks like it was made by some other insect, probably some
sort of large beetle... looks more like an exit hole, the insect
pupated and chewed it's way out. Insect eggs were laid on the
surface, upon hatching the "worm" chewed a tiny diameter hole deep
into the wood where it created a chamber, now after pupating it made a
much larger and messier hole for its escape.

M-W

pu�pa
noun
: an intermediate usually quiescent stage of a metamorphic insect (as
a bee, moth, or beetle) that occurs between the larva and the imago,
is usually enclosed in a cocoon or protective covering, and undergoes
internal changes by which larval structures are replaced by those
typical of the imago

Definitely not a carpenter bee hole. Carpenter bees make much smaller
and neater entrance holes, perfectly round, about a 1/2" diameter,
just large enough to admit the bee.... deeper inside they excavate
galleries and chambers.

Woodpeckers don't make holes like that either, they need a much larger
diameter to make a deep hole... woodpeckers nest in vertical wood and
much higher.

That hole looks like it was made by some other insect, probably some
sort of large beetle... looks more like an exit hole, the insect
pupated and chewed it's way out. Insect eggs were laid on the
surface, upon hatching the "worm" chewed a tiny diameter hole deep
into the wood where it created a chamber, now after pupating it made a
much larger and messier hole for its escape.


That is one HUGE insect! Well, it certainly made a larger and messier hole

"D. Staples" wrote in message
omsupplyinc...

"symplastless" wrote in message
. ..
"Don Staples" wrote in message
omsupplyinc...
"symplastless" wrote in message
. ..

Don Maser et al. (1979) reported that 178 vertebrates use logs in the
Blue Mountains 14 amphibians and reptiles, 115 birds, and 49 mammals;
they tabulated use by log decay classes for each species. Logs are
considered important in early successional stages as well as in old-
growth forests. The persistence of large logs has special importance in
providing wildlife with habitat continuity over long periods and through
major disturbances (Franklin, Cromack, Kermit, et al. others, 1981).
Are all of these as worthless as you claim maggots to be and just better
if considered dead?

Really not much on cognitive thought, are you, deadwood?
It's symplastless and not dead. Its too eazy to call something dead.

Show me where I
said maggots are worthless, or show me where a corpse is alive after
maggots have invaded.
I did not study human biology I studied tree biology. I will leave the
topic of humans and corpse to those that have studied that area. I have
not.
Better still show me how dead wood can be revived into a living structure.
When you build an airplane its pretty dead (unlike a tree) and later the
humans and others come and board. When they have boarded it would be
foolish to consider the plane dead. Or so "I" believe. In the once fertile
forest - make a home and they will come. As far as a quote about so called
"dead wood" by you Don Staples. "Usually, the sales material is damaged,
dead, or dying. Finding a market for this material can be tricky, and
incomes low. But, best to move the material, get it out of the way for
future work. Take what income you can from the salvage, and set it aside for
planting the site. " at
http://www.livingston.net/dstaples/Services/salvage.htm You are not saying
one word about the associates of trees that live in, on and near
symplastless wood. You only say "Usually, the sales material is damaged,
dead, or dying. " You are what could be termed a false prophet in this area
of claims by you Don Staples. Trees connect living and dead cells in ways
so that the dead parts still benefit the entire tree (SHIGO, 1999). We
document that a large symplastless tree is not a wasted resource; indeed, it
continues to function as an important part of a terrestrial or water system,
either while remaining on the site at which it once grew, or by becoming a
structural part of an aquatic or marine habitat. We aim to help anyone
interested in perpetual forest productivity to understand the importance of
large, symplastless woody debris. The book develops certain principles and
ideas in sequence from the forest to the sea (Maser, Tarrant, Trappe and
Franklin, 1988, pg1-par5). Fallen trees harbor a myriad of organisms, from
bacteria and actinomycetes to higher fungi. Of these, only some of the
fungi might be noticed by the causal observer as mushrooms or bracket fungi.
These structures, however, are merely the fruiting bodies produced by mold
colonies within the log. Many fungi fruit within the fallen tree, therefore
they are seen only when the tree is torn apart. Even when a fallen tree is
torn apart, only a fraction of the fungi present are noticed because the
fruiting bodies of most appear only for a small portion of the year. The
smaller organisms, not visible to the unaided eye, are still important
components of the system (Maser and Trappe, 1984, pg 16-par 5). Not very
dead!!!!!! Fallen trees offer multitudes of both external and internal
habitats that change and yet persist through the decades. One needs an
understanding of the synergistic affects of constant small changes within a
persistent large structure to appreciate the dynamics of a fallen tree and
its function in an ecosystem (Maser and Trappe, 1984, pg 17-par 1).
Eventually the tree falls: the wood is in contact with the soil, again
providing another unique ecological situation. Some species such as American
chestnut would have served ecological system survival duties for 50 years or
more (SHIGO, 1969).
Free-living bacteria in woody residues and soil wood fix 30-60% of the
nitrogen in the forest soil. In addition, 20% of soil nitrogen is stored in
these components (Harvey et al. 1987). Harmon et al. (1986) reported that
CWD accounted for as much as 45% of aboveground stores of organic matter.
Symplastless wood in terrestrial ecosystems is a primary location for fungal
colonization and often acts as refugia for mycorrhizal fungi during
ecosystem disturbance (Triska and Cromack 1979; Harmon et al. 1986; Caza
1993) (Voller and Harrison, 1998).



Free-living bacteria in woody residues and soil wood fix 30-60% of the
nitrogen in the forest soil. In addition, 20% of soil nitrogen is stored in
these components (Harvey et al. 1987). Harmon et al. (1986) reported that
CWD accounted for as much as 45% of aboveground stores of organic matter.
Symplastless wood in terrestrial ecosystems is a primary location for fungal
colonization and often acts as refugia for mycorrhizal fungi during
ecosystem disturbance (Triska and Cromack 1979; Harmon et al. 1986; Caza
1993) (Voller and Harrison, 1998).



Conclusion: What purpose and need is there that biomass be classified as
dead, as in this project? Although the symplast may have died completely,
the structure still continues, most of the time as a biomass. To claim to
be removing just "dead" "non-functional" mass during logging operations is
based on false premise, i.e., that the biomass is dead. Symplastless and
symplast containing trees are linked together in the living machinery of a
forest (Maser, Tarrant, Trappe and Franklin, 1988, pg25-par1).


I have to go get dinn er. That's a start.

Not the destructive elements breaking in down into it
basic materials, in your befuddle mind fish in the sea make the sea alive,
termites make dead wood alive, and your rediculous dictionary makes you
alive.

Or just explain how any of your above paragraph indicates that dead wood
is not dead, but alive. Use some source other than your dumb ass
dictionary.

Don Staples - Consulting Salvage Hog
http://www.livingston.net/dstaples/Services/salvage.htm

Just addressed that interest.

--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Tree Biologist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.
Some people will buy products they do not understand and not buy books that
will give them understanding.

"Sheldon" wrote in message
...
On Jun 13, 2:27?pm, "Don Staples" wrote:
"beccabunga" wrote in message

That hole looks like it was made by some other insect, probably some
sort of large beetle... looks more like an exit hole, the insect
pupated and chewed it's way out. Insect eggs were laid on the
surface, upon hatching the "worm" chewed a tiny diameter hole deep
into the wood where it created a chamber, now after pupating it made a
much larger and messier hole for its escape.

Its awesome to see that inside the wood as the organism grows so does the
hole. I have seen that in dissections.

Are you sure its not a old pruning cut?

John

"symplastless" wrote in message
. ..

Get back on your bipolar meds, deadwood.

"D. Staples" wrote in message
inc...

"symplastless" wrote in message
. ..

Get back on your bipolar meds, deadwood.
Don Staples - Consulting Salvage Hog
http://www.livingston.net/dstaples/Services/salvage.htm

Meds, deadwood?

Define deadwood, in other words what are you saying?


--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Tree Biologist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.
Some people will buy products they do not understand and not buy books that
will give them understanding.