Janet Baraclough wrote:
The message
from "Warren" contains these words:

Janet Baraclough wrote:

The rain, and wind, come from 300 miles of Atlantic
ocean and are heavily salt-laden.

Next you'll be asserting water can be lit on fire! Salt is
NOT evaporated into clouds & precipitation NEVER salinizes
soils.

Wrong.


http://agspsrv34.agric.wa.gov.au/env...#salt%20source


If what you got out of that page is that salt can be evaporated
into the clouds, and that rain in coastal areas contains salt,
then we can clearly see how little you understand about even the
most simple science.

You're incompetent. That page makes it perfectly clear; quote

*"Where does the salt come from?

*Soil salt can come from three main sources:

* 1. From the breakdown of parent rock: A very slow process.
* 2. From geological inundation by the oceans: Only on discrete
parts of Australia.
* 3. From wind blown salt, usually in rain water from the ocean.

*Salt in rainfall can range from about 20 kg/ha/per annum (usually
inland with low rainfall) to more *than 200 kg/ha/per annum (usually
coastal with high rainfall). In most of Australia, this is the
source *of stored salts. " end quote.

Presley has given another cite telling you the same thing.

You can stop trying to be right. You can stop trying to prove
that accepted science is wrong. Every time you post, you
demonstrate how little you know, and how difficult of a time you
have dealing with being wrong. Save us all the pain of watching
you dig yourself deeper and deeper into your pit of humiliation.
Stop now, because you obviously don't have the temperament to
deal with any further embarrassment.

I suggest you apply that to yourself, Stephen and Paghat. You
jumped on the wrong bandwagon, Warren; your heroes are not the
experts they pretend and now you've been hoist on their own petard
of lies and deliberate misrepresentations.

Janet.

There are many places in North America with salt deposits left from the
Oceanic inundation not just Australia.

--

Travis in Shoreline (just North of Seattle) Washington
USDA Zone 8
Sunset Zone 5

The message
from Stephen Henning contains these words:

Janet Baraclough wrote:


Look up the websites in my post to Stephen, he has misled you.

Which one, the one on the increased salinity of Australia's arid regions
by rainwater

No, that was in a post to Paghat, showing her that she was wrong in
saying ocean rain does not contain salt. Look up the websites in my post
replying to you.

or the picture of Brodick Castle with no rhododendrons or
azaleas in it.

Yes there are. You said

I spent most of the month of May visiting Scotland's famous rhododendron
and azalea gardens and none grew rhododendrons nor azaleas near the open
sea or near the beaches. The rhododendron and azalea gardens I visited
we

Brodick Castle & Gardens, Isle of Arran (on an island on the Firth of
Clyde, but it is situated high not near the sea)


http://www.arransites.co.uk/images/bro_castle2.jpg

Now, the picture clearly shows that Brodick Castle's garden IS near
the sea, and is not "high". Those are contrary to your claims. Now, you
say the picture "does not show rhododendrons or azaleas in it". But you
agree above, it is a famous rhododendron garden and you visited it to
see them.

How strange, that you don't know Brodick Castle's most famous rhodo
area is the section at the bottom of the garden adjoining the coast
road, and that the dense greenery lining the road, clearly visible in
the picture, right beside the sea, is a wide variety of rhododdendrons.


The other websites I mentioned, give the true locations and elevations
and descriptions of the other gardens you wrongly described as "high
up", "not near the sea" or not "growing rhododendrons and azaleas near
the sea".

Just because you can raise rhododendrons and azaleas and own some swamp
land doesn't mean that they thrive in swamp land.

? I don't own any swamp land or claim rhododendrons and azaleas
thrive in swamps.

Let's use some logic
here.

Okay. Why is it, that you make so many glaring errors of fact ,
description AND location about gardens you claim to have visited very
recently?

Janet

Janet Baraclough wrote:
The message
from "Warren" contains these words:

Thank goodness you pointed out how everyone else lies so much,
otherwise I'd
never realize that you're the only generous who really knows how to grow
azaleas!

There's another of your lies, Warren. I haven't said *everyone* else
lies. You do, clearly.


Ah. That clears it up. You don't know what the definition of a lie is.

A lie is a known false statement deliberately presented as being true. It is
not simply something that is factually incorrect. And certainly isn't
something that is factually incorrect on a technicality. If I say "tall
people bump their heads on doorways", that's not a "lie" even if technically
they don't always bump their heads. If I say "a tall person just bumped his
head on my doorway", that would be a lie because not only isn't it true, I
know it's not true, and I deliberately presented it as being true. However
if I believe that a tall person bumped his head, and it turns out he didn't,
it would not have been a lie for me to say it because I believed it to be
true at the time.

So the problem isn't that you're calling people liars when they aren't
telling lies. The problem is you're calling people liars because you don't
know what a lie is! That explains a lot! You're not a wicked name caller.
You're just ignorant.

BTW... Are you going to put your money where your mouth is, and offer to pay
for any damage that happens if it turns out you're not right about azaleas
thriving in salt water conditions? Or are you ready to back down from your
ridiculous assertion that azaleas thrive in salty conditions? You
side-stepped that in your last reply, and I'm all ready to pour some
sal****er on my azaleas per your recommendation, but not if you're not
willing to stand behind your statements.

Admitting that you might be wrong about azaleas thriving in salt water
wouldn't make you a liar. It's quite obvious that you really believe(d) it
to be true, which means admitting that you may have been wrong isn't the
same as admitting you're a liar -- unless you then claim that you never said
something that you did.

Or you can just call me a liar again, and demonstrate your ignorance once
more.

--
Warren H.

==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
Have an outdoor project? Get a Black & Decker power tool::
http://www.holzemville.com/mall/blackanddecker/

The message wosLe.2468$%K4.1348@trnddc09
from "Travis" contains these words:

You've messed the attributions, Travis; now you won't know who to insult.

Paghat said:
Salt is
NOT evaporated into clouds & precipitation NEVER salinizes
soils.

I replied


Wrong.

http://agspsrv34.agric.wa.gov.au/env...#salt%20source

Warren replied


If what you got out of that page is that salt can be evaporated
into the clouds, and that rain in coastal areas contains salt,
then we can clearly see how little you understand about even the
most simple science.

I said

You're incompetent. That page makes it perfectly clear; quote

*"Where does the salt come from?

*Soil salt can come from three main sources:

* 1. From the breakdown of parent rock: A very slow process.
* 2. From geological inundation by the oceans: Only on discrete
parts of Australia.
* 3. From wind blown salt, usually in rain water from the ocean.

*Salt in rainfall can range from about 20 kg/ha/per annum (usually
inland with low rainfall) to more *than 200 kg/ha/per annum (usually
coastal with high rainfall). In most of Australia, this is the
source *of stored salts. " end quote.

Presley has given another cite telling you the same thing.


There are many places in North America with salt deposits left from the
Oceanic inundation not just Australia.

No doubt, but try to keep up. We're discussing, does coastal rain
ever contain salt from the sea. Does coastal rain deposit salt on plants
and soil. Okay? The websites provided by myself and Presley, show it
does, so Paghat and Warren are wrong. Here it is again, just for you.

* 3. From wind blown salt, usually in rain water from the ocean.

*Salt in rainfall can range from about 20 kg/ha/per annum (usually
inland with low rainfall) to more *than 200 kg/ha/per annum (usually
coastal with high rainfall). In most of Australia, this is the
source *of stored salts. "

Janet.

The message IdsLe.2462$%K4.1759@trnddc09
from "Travis" contains these words:

Janet Baraclough wrote:
The message
from Stephen Henning contains these words:

RBG of Edinburgh, 1.5 miles from the firth of Forth, not very
close.

The RBGE has an elevation of 134 meters.
Younter Botanic Garden at Benmore features a 450 foot high view
point.

And the YBG garden goes down to 15m above the sea.

RBGE is on a raised beach a few hundred yards from the sea at
Leith (an Edinburgh port). The elevation is 20 to 40 m, not 134 m
as you
claim. Figures from their own website below.

www.rbge.org.uk/rbge/web/hort/four.jsp

http://www.nts.org.uk/web/site/home/...056&NavId=5110

is a map showing the garden's true location at the edge of the
water, NOT as you claim "Crarae Gardens, 1000 feet from Loch
Fyne, not
very close"..


http://www.nts.org.uk/web/site/home/...053&NavId=5110
gives a map of Arduaine Garden, right on the coast and a maximum
100 ft above sealevel, NOT 239 ft as you claim.

The websites quoted belong to the Royal Botanical gardens (owners
of
Benmore and Edinburgh Botanical Garden) and The National Trust for
Scotland, owners of Arduaine, Inverewe and Crarae.

http://www.nts.org.uk/web/site/home/...103&NavId=5122
for sea-location of Inverewe

azaleas in flower by the sea at Inverewe.
http://www.gardens-guide.com/gardenp...0_inverewe.jpg

Janet.

Janet you are an IDIOT you don't even read the web sites you cite.

Are you having some comprehension problems, Travis, or just not
keeping up with who said what, again? Which bit of those websites is
causing you difficulty? Do explain.

Janet

You are misunderstanding the content of the site. Warren seemed to be
pretending that there is no saline content of rainfall whatsoever - that is
patently false. There are scientists who measure these things very
carefully, and they have weighed in on the matter in the sites below and
elsewhere. But buried in the same site are the words "SAME IONIC PROPORTIONS
BUT MUCH MORE DILUTE". There is a great deal of salt in many aquifers, but
the water is potable - because it is more DILUTE than seawater. As someone
from FAR FAR inland, I can smell the salt in the air long before I'm in
sight of the ocean - because salt is coming in on the ocean breeze. Does
this mean it is coming in in quantities sufficient to kill vegetation? No.
Honestly, there are days I think reading comprehension should be a
prerequisite for internet participation.
"Travis" wrote in message
news:VlsLe.2467$%K4.441@trnddc09...
presley wrote:
A further elaboration of the theme of the chemical composition of
rainfall: "What is a chemical salt recipe for 'typical' rainwater?

Rainwater gets its compositions largely by dissolving particulate
materials in the atmosphere (upper troposhere) when droplets of
water nucleate on atmospheric particulates, and secondarily by
dissolving gasses from the atmosphere. Rainwater compositions vary
geographically.
In open ocean and coastal areas they have a salt content
essentially like that of sea water (same ionic proportions but much
more dilute) plus CO2 as bicarbonate anion (acidic pH).

Terrestrial rain compositions vary siginificantly from place to
place because the regional geology can greatly affect the types of
particulates that get added to the atmosphere. Likewise, sources of
gaesous acids (SO3, NO2) and bases (NH3) vary as a function of
biome factors and anthopogenic land use practices. Each of these
gasses can be added in varying proportions from natural and non
natural input sources (non-natural sources of SO3 and NO2 far
outweigh natural ones). Particulate load to the atmosphere can also
be greatly affected by human activities. Finally, local climate
(especially the amount of precipitation in one area compared to
another) will affect the solute concentrations in terrestrial
rainwaters. The result is highly variable compositions, so there
isn't one simple formula. If you want to read up a bit on this and
see data for rainwater from many different locales globally, I suggest
the book "Global
Environment: water air and geochemical cycles" by Berner and Berner
(Prentice-Hall, 1996) or a similar text "

Here in the PNW our rain comes in off the Pacific Ocean and it is not the
least bit salty.

--

Travis in Shoreline (just North of Seattle) Washington
USDA Zone 8
Sunset Zone 5

In article , Stephen
Henning wrote:

"presley" wrote:

Warren, you're not as informed as you think you are.

http://landresources.montana.edu/LRE...pic%20B2_Part1
_Solution_Chemistry_Web.pdf

According to the site above, from University of Montana, the composition of
rainfall is nearly identical to seawater with some additional molecules
picked up in the atmosphere.

Let's see now:

1) People drink rain water, especially on ocean islands where there is
no other fresh water, are very healthy.

2) People who drink sea water die.

and you claim that they are the same. I hope you don't try to drink sea
water.

The methods by which it can be assessed that rainwater is evaporative from
the sea measured for it's isotopic signature & ionic proportionality does
not mean rainfall that is the "same" as the sea for salt content. When by
mass ratio it can be proven that sodium & chloride ions in groundwater are
"the same as seawater" this means whatever the salt load (whether barely
detectible or extremely great) originated in the ocean vs originating in
mineral dissolution or man-caused pollutants. It does NOT mean the
groundwater or the rainfall is sal****er. It just doesn't mean that. As
sensible to believe being that signatures & proportionality "the same as
seawater" means rainfall is teaming with plankton & jellyfish.

Salinity in soil DECREASES in areas of highest rainfall. If rain were
salty the opposite would be true, & much of the world would drop dead
because rainwater would be unfit to drink.

Rainfall even lowers the salinity in tidal areas of the ocean itself. In
the Ariake Sea for a studied example, salinity for most of the year is a
fairly constant 25-26%. During the rainy monsoon season salinity drops to
15% [H. Koike, University of Tokkyo Bulletin 18, 1980]. So too mangrove
swamps become decreasingly salinized when deluted during rainy seasons. If
the "sameness" of rainwater & seawater was defined by their salt content,
tidal environments would not have lowered salinity during heavy rainfall,
& the land surface would become so salinized, within a year or two the
earth would no longer be habitable my man.

What sodium does find its way into rainfall is generally assumed to be of
ocean origin. It is such an inconsequential component that rainfall is
NEVER given as one of the causes of inland salinization.

It's beyond comprehension that even one person really believes rainfall
has the same salt content as the sea. Such belief is explicable only if
scientific knowledge, ability to reason, or even the ability to draw
personal conclusions after opening one's mouth in a rainstorm, are fast
slipping away from an increasingly imbecilic population.

And so the thread gets increasingly stupid from assertions that
rhododendrons are planted as salt air windbreaks, that the Atlantic ocean
dumps sal****er 300 miles inland from rainclouds & storms, & that sodium
mass ratio statistics for FRESHWATER somehow prove that freshwater is in
reality sal****er. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

-paghat the ratgirl
--
Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt he
http://www.paghat.com/giftshop.html
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to
liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot." -Thomas Jefferson

In article , "presley"
wrote:

As someone
from FAR FAR inland, I can smell the salt in the air long before I'm in
sight of the ocean - because salt is coming in on the ocean breeze.

Salt is odorless. You are smelling poop, decay, & acetate.

-paggers
--
Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt he
http://www.paghat.com/giftshop.html
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to
liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot." -Thomas Jefferson

In article , "Warren"
wrote:

Janet Baraclough wrote:
I suggest you apply that to yourself, Stephen and Paghat. You jumped
on the wrong bandwagon, Warren; your heroes are not the experts they
pretend and now you've been hoist on their own petard of lies and
deliberate misrepresentations.

Wow, talk about projecting!

-paggers


Okay. You win. Azaleas will thrive in salty conditions.

I'm ready to go out and pour salt water on all my azaleas based on your
convincing arguments. But just in case you're wrong, I'll wait until you put
your money where your mouth is, and agree to pay for replacements if you
turn out to be wrong.

Thank goodness you pointed out how everyone else lies so much, otherwise I'd
never realize that you're the only generous who really knows how to grow
azaleas!
--
Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt he
http://www.paghat.com/giftshop.html
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to
liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot." -Thomas Jefferson

On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 21:23:58 -0700,
(paghat) posted:

In article , Stephen
Henning wrote:

"presley" wrote:

Warren, you're not as informed as you think you are.

http://landresources.montana.edu/LRE...pic%20B2_Part1
_Solution_Chemistry_Web.pdf

According to the site above, from University of Montana, the composition of
rainfall is nearly identical to seawater with some additional molecules
picked up in the atmosphere.

Let's see now:

1) People drink rain water, especially on ocean islands where there is
no other fresh water, are very healthy.

2) People who drink sea water die.

and you claim that they are the same. I hope you don't try to drink sea
water.

The methods by which it can be assessed that rainwater is evaporative from
the sea measured for it's isotopic signature & ionic proportionality does
not mean rainfall that is the "same" as the sea for salt content. When by
mass ratio it can be proven that sodium & chloride ions in groundwater are
"the same as seawater" this means whatever the salt load (whether barely
detectible or extremely great) originated in the ocean vs originating in
mineral dissolution or man-caused pollutants. It does NOT mean the
groundwater or the rainfall is sal****er. It just doesn't mean that. As
sensible to believe being that signatures & proportionality "the same as
seawater" means rainfall is teaming with plankton & jellyfish.

Salinity in soil DECREASES in areas of highest rainfall. If rain were
salty the opposite would be true, & much of the world would drop dead
because rainwater would be unfit to drink.

Rainfall even lowers the salinity in tidal areas of the ocean itself. In
the Ariake Sea for a studied example, salinity for most of the year is a
fairly constant 25-26%. During the rainy monsoon season salinity drops to
15% [H. Koike, University of Tokkyo Bulletin 18, 1980]. So too mangrove
swamps become decreasingly salinized when deluted during rainy seasons. If
the "sameness" of rainwater & seawater was defined by their salt content,
tidal environments would not have lowered salinity during heavy rainfall,
& the land surface would become so salinized, within a year or two the
earth would no longer be habitable my man.

What sodium does find its way into rainfall is generally assumed to be of
ocean origin. It is such an inconsequential component that rainfall is
NEVER given as one of the causes of inland salinization.

It's beyond comprehension that even one person really believes rainfall
has the same salt content as the sea. Such belief is explicable only if
scientific knowledge, ability to reason, or even the ability to draw
personal conclusions after opening one's mouth in a rainstorm, are fast
slipping away from an increasingly imbecilic population.


It is as bad as all that, Paggie. The abilities are down, the
increasinglies are up, way up. It's becoming harder and harder to
carry on simple, ordinary, succinct conversations with average
people.

"It's beyond comprehension ... ". I like that.

"And your wise men don't know how it fee--ee-eels
To be thick
As a brick."

Me, I revere the small islands of sun drenched sanity that still
exist. Carry on.

Implanted

And so the thread gets increasingly stupid from assertions that
rhododendrons are planted as salt air windbreaks, that the Atlantic ocean
dumps sal****er 300 miles inland from rainclouds & storms, & that sodium
mass ratio statistics for FRESHWATER somehow prove that freshwater is in
reality sal****er. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

-paghat the ratgirl

The message wosLe.2468$%K4.1348@trnddc09
from "Travis" contains these words:

You've messed the attributions, Travis; now you won't know who to insult.

Paghat said:
Salt is
NOT evaporated into clouds & precipitation NEVER salinizes
soils.

I replied


Wrong.

http://agspsrv34.agric.wa.gov.au/env...#salt%20source

Warren replied


If what you got out of that page is that salt can be evaporated
into the clouds, and that rain in coastal areas contains salt,
then we can clearly see how little you understand about even the
most simple science.

I said

You're incompetent. That page makes it perfectly clear; quote

*"Where does the salt come from?

*Soil salt can come from three main sources:

* 1. From the breakdown of parent rock: A very slow process.
* 2. From geological inundation by the oceans: Only on discrete
parts of Australia.
* 3. From wind blown salt, usually in rain water from the ocean.

*Salt in rainfall can range from about 20 kg/ha/per annum (usually
inland with low rainfall) to more *than 200 kg/ha/per annum (usually
coastal with high rainfall). In most of Australia, this is the
source *of stored salts. " end quote.

Presley has given another cite telling you the same thing.


There are many places in North America with salt deposits left from the
Oceanic inundation not just Australia.

No doubt, but try to keep up. We're discussing, does coastal rain
ever contain salt from the sea / Does coastal rain deposit salt on
plants and soil. Okay? The websites provided by myself and Presley, show
it does, so Paghat and Warren are wrong. Here it is again, just for you.

* 3. From wind blown salt, usually in rain water from the ocean.

*Salt in rainfall can range from about 20 kg/ha/per annum (usually
inland with low rainfall) to more *than 200 kg/ha/per annum (usually
coastal with high rainfall). In most of Australia, this is the
source *of stored salts. "

Janet.

The message IdsLe.2462$%K4.1759@trnddc09
from "Travis" contains these words:

Janet Baraclough wrote:
The message
from Stephen Henning contains these words:

RBG of Edinburgh, 1.5 miles from the firth of Forth, not very
close.

The RBGE has an elevation of 134 meters.
Younter Botanic Garden at Benmore features a 450 foot high view
point.

And the YBG garden goes down to 15m above the sea.

RBGE is on a raised beach a few hundred yards from the sea at
Leith (an Edinburgh port). The elevation is 20 to 40 m, not 134 m
as you
claim. Figures from their own website below.

www.rbge.org.uk/rbge/web/hort/four.jsp

http://www.nts.org.uk/web/site/home/...056&NavId=5110

is a map showing the garden's true location at the edge of the
water, NOT as you claim "Crarae Gardens, 1000 feet from Loch
Fyne, not
very close"..


http://www.nts.org.uk/web/site/home/...053&NavId=5110
gives a map of Arduaine Garden, right on the coast and a maximum
100 ft above sealevel, NOT 239 ft as you claim.

The websites quoted belong to the Royal Botanical gardens (owners
of
Benmore and Edinburgh Botanical Garden) and The National Trust for
Scotland, owners of Arduaine, Inverewe and Crarae.

http://www.nts.org.uk/web/site/home/...103&NavId=5122
for sea-location of Inverewe

azaleas in flower by the sea at Inverewe.
http://www.gardens-guide.com/gardenp...0_inverewe.jpg

Janet.

Janet you are an IDIOT you don't even read the web sites you cite.

Which bit of those websites is causing you difficulty? Do explain.

Janet

The message
from (paghat) contains these words:



What sodium does find its way into rainfall is generally assumed to be of
ocean origin.

Ah, a change of heart from your earlier mistake when you claimed

Salt is NOT evaporated
into clouds & precipitation NEVER salinizes soils.

(It does salinate soil in Australia, btw..cite already provided)

And so the thread gets increasingly stupid from assertions that
rhododendrons are planted as salt air windbreaks,

Osgood Mackennzie used rhododendron ponticum for that purpose at Inverewe.

that the Atlantic ocean
dumps sal****er 300 miles inland from rainclouds & storms,

That stupid assertion was by yourself, nobody else, when you said

If you can cite something
factual & scientific as evidence that the Atlantic ocean leaps up & jumps
300 miles inland, cite that wondrous evidence that rainfall occurs
differently in Scotland than in any other place on Earth.

Janet

On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 22:36:19 +0100, Janet Baraclough
wrote:

You've messed the attributions, Travis;


Travis misses a lot, be kind to Mr. one liner, he hasn't even learned
to trim posts yet...








Acts of creation are ordinarily reserved for gods and poets. To plant a pine, one need only own a shovel.
-- Aldo Leopold

In article , Janet Baraclough
wrote:

The message
from (paghat) contains these words:



What sodium does find its way into rainfall is generally assumed to be of
ocean origin.

Ah, a change of heart from your earlier mistake when you claimed

Salt is NOT evaporated
into clouds & precipitation NEVER salinizes soils.

So that says to you salt evaporates does it? Sodium isotopic signatures
are not evidence that freshwater is sal****er, no more than is a
fingerprint left on your booze glass proof that the glass is actually your
finger, or a crime lab's DNA reading from a cigarette butt proof that that
cigarettes are people. Here's an elementary school science fact for you:
Salt does not evaporate because it is non-volatile.

Perhaps you're legitimately not smart enough to tell sal****er from
freshwater, but the facts do remain salt does NOT evaporate into clouds &
it's loony to persist in your belief that it does. Rainfall does NOT
salinize soil as you persist in believing; the facts are the exact
opposite of what you eerily want to believe is true.

This really simple child's science experiment tends to convince the kiddies:

Dissolve precisely 15 ml of salt (about a tablespoon) in a half a cup of
water. Set in sun until water evaporates. Weigh salt. From this a very
young school child learns that salt does not evaporate or undergo any
chemical alteration in water. Alas, I suspect YOUR conclusion would have
to be that the 15 ml of crystals left in the cup is dehydrated water
concentrate, because the salt evaporated.

It's beyond comprehension that even one person really believes rainfall
has the same salt content as the sea. Such belief is explicable only if
scientific knowledge, ability to reason, or even the ability to draw
personal conclusions after opening one's mouth in a rainstorm, are fast
slipping away from an increasingly imbecilic population.

-paghat the ratgirl
--
Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt he
http://www.paghat.com/giftshop.html
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to
liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot." -Thomas Jefferson