lid writes:

Again, cancer takes years from the time a cell starts dividing
uncontrollably, until the time cancer becomes inoperable -- in most
cases.

I'm sure glad you added that "in most cases" because it doesn't "always"
take years. My sister died the day before her 21st birthday (the day
after Thanksgiving) of an aggressive cancer that "only occurs in old
people" (her doctor's words) with the chances of her getting it "one in a
million" (again, her doctor's words). As near as they could determine, it
started weeks before her second baby was born that February. That would
make it having been there far less than a year before her August surgery
which revealed the cancer to the doctors, and required extensive surgery
in a hopeless attempt to save her life. Even if they were off on their
estimate of start time by several months, it would still make it less than
year before surgery. Without surgery because of her extreme and
increasing pain, she would have died with only an autopsy revealing that
it was cancer . . . only the pain and lump were any symptoms which were
attributed to an enlarged spleen.

When cancer growth is talked about, one must take into consideration the
age of the patient . . . it commonly grows much faster in young patients
than older patients. That has to do with cell growth and regeneration
which becomes slower as we age.

And, yes, very healthy people can get cancer. A local doctor, a
competition iron man athlete, who I would have identified as the
healthiest person I knew if asked, died of brain cancer. He,
undoubtedly, was yet another victim of former Hanford employees.


So, a diet adopted in the last year pre-diagnosis, is of little
relevance.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see studies that show that a sudden
change in diet (of less than three years duration) has much of an effect
on warding off cancer which, as you said, usually takes several years to
reach a point of detection. Helping get it under control might be another
matter altogether since the mental attitude factor is an important part of
any cure. Often people who have a good mental attitude beat unbeatable
odds, against cancer and other medical issues, leaving doctors puzzled. I
have had the good fortune to know several of those in my life. We humans
are quite a complex machine with no one-size-fits-all answer or solution.
The best we can do is take as good as care of ourselves are we are able to
do, trying to educate ourselves to what is best (versus what we want!) and
implement it into our lives. That is likely a large part for most of us
on this group in having our own gardens. Even the few months a year we
can eat fresh-from-the-garden veggies is a big plus for our bodies. I,
for one, am not elated each fall as the garden is gone. As I type, the
nights are cooler and production is definitely down. I console myself with
knowing I can dig 'taters all winter.g

So, can we still plant garlic this late?

Glenna

"Bill" wrote:


"DigitalVinyl" wrote in message
.. .
Bill you're clueless. You know nothing about Low-carb diets. You just
said theat every doctor in the united states advises every diabetic to
use a scam of a diet. Diabetics are low-carbers. Low carbing is the
control of insulin.

Yeah, how did they get to be diabetic in the first place?

I'm talking about "healthy" people, once the horse is out of the barn, it's
too late!

Healthy people-- you mean people who pay little attention to what they
eat yet maintain a healthy weight without an ounce of trying?

I realized that some diabetes is caused by malfunctioning of the pancreas,
whereas type II diabetes is caused by eating unhealthy and being fat at an
early age.

Bill

Perhaps Bill thenn you can explain to doctors around the world why
"Adult Onset" Diabetes (type II) is showing up in children prior to
puberty in record numbers. ?Because at the age of 10 they have had a
lifetime of eating unhealthy and being fat? Overweight children have
always existed--I was a fat kid at 5 years old. But I still haven't
officially developed diabetes at 38.

Yes, you are the official answer man.

DiGiTAL_ViNYL (no email)
350/268/Sep-263/200
Atkins since Jan 12, 2004
Maint. not counting (CCLL=50-60)

"Bill" wrote:


"DigitalVinyl" wrote in message
.. .
Bill you're clueless. You know nothing about Low-carb diets. You just
said theat every doctor in the united states advises every diabetic to
use a scam of a diet. Diabetics are low-carbers. Low carbing is the
control of insulin.

Yeah, how did they get to be diabetic in the first place?

I'm talking about "healthy" people, once the horse is out of the barn, it's
too late!

Healthy people-- you mean people who pay little attention to what they
eat yet maintain a healthy weight without an ounce of trying?

I realized that some diabetes is caused by malfunctioning of the pancreas,
whereas type II diabetes is caused by eating unhealthy and being fat at an
early age.

Bill

Perhaps Bill thenn you can explain to doctors around the world why
"Adult Onset" Diabetes (type II) is showing up in children prior to
puberty in record numbers. ?Because at the age of 10 they have had a
lifetime of eating unhealthy and being fat? Overweight children have
always existed--I was a fat kid at 5 years old. But I still haven't
officially developed diabetes at 38.

Yes, you are the official answer man.

DiGiTAL_ViNYL (no email)
350/268/Sep-263/200
Atkins since Jan 12, 2004
Maint. not counting (CCLL=50-60)

Pat Kiewicz wrote:
|| Ignoramus13229 said:
|||
||| In article , Pat Kiewicz wrote:
||
|||| Side comment #2:
|||
|||| I have kind of a problem with the whole low-carb thing. Limiting
|||| high-glycemic foods is sensible. Avoiding highly processed foods
|||| is sensible. Eating a lot of meat from grain-fed, confined
|||| animals and
|||| the wrong sorts of fats isn't. Someone close to me went on the
|||| original Atkins diet. He developed kidney stones and ended up not
|||| so much later with inoperable cancer. Soured me on the concept.
|||
||| Scary stuff! My only question about this inoperable cancer, it
||| usually
||| takes years for cancer to appear and develop. Are you sure that he
||| did
||| not have cancer before?
||
|| Cutting out most fruits and many vegetables (which he did) because
|| they contained cabohydrates -- foods that are loaded with beneficial
|| phytochemicals -- foods that are associated with lower rates of
|| cancer -- and eating loads of supermarket beef certainly didn't help.

But it likely didn't result in inoperable cancer, either.

Glenna Rose said:

So, can we still plant garlic this late?

I don't plant mine until mid October.

--
Pat in Plymouth MI ('someplace.net' is comcast)

Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
(attributed to Don Marti)

Ignoramus19552 said:


That would be irrelevant if, by the time your friend adopted the diet,
he already had cancer process. No amount of phytochemicals helps with
a cancer already underway.

Again, cancer takes years from the time a cell starts dividing
uncontrollably, until the time cancer becomes inoperable -- in most
cases.

So, a diet adopted in the last year pre-diagnosis, is of little
relevance.

Sorry, I wasn't clear; shortly after the kidney stones (years on the diet) he
was diagnosed with cancer. Kidney problems are most definitely a risk
for some people in a high protein diet.

I don't believe the diet *caused* the cancer but rather *promoted* its growth.
(The cancer was diffuse rather than a discrete tumor, therefore not removeable.)

Best advice, based on years of reading (in science and nutrition): eat plenty of
nutrient-dense fruits and vegetables.

--
Pat in Plymouth MI ('someplace.net' is comcast)

Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
(attributed to Don Marti)

simy1 said:

(Pat Kiewicz) wrote in message
news:nu6dnUmFaOi4hNXcRVn-vQ@comc
ast.com...

actually, free-ranging cattle (organic) has substantial amounts of
omega-3. and is of course leaner (and tougher). evidently stress, and
grains, play a role in how a beast puts up its fat.

Limited availability...and very pricey. But definitely better fat profile.

I don't know about that. We eat meat about twice a week, and we
probably spend $20-25 for the whole family. And we don't do things
really cheap: we have, besides the standard meats, lamb, buffalo,
ostrich, all sorts of things. Organic meat is about 60-80% more. We
definitely spend $40 or more for fruits, except in the fall when one
can buy locally.

We mostly stick to chicken (Amish) and fish.

Couldn't 'sell' the ostrich and buffalo to the others in this house.


--
Pat in Plymouth MI ('someplace.net' is comcast)

Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
(attributed to Don Marti)

Diet beside, no one seems to have really answered the original 'gardening'
question !

I must say I haven't read through ALL the opinions generated from this
original post. Amusing though they all were. Someone hit a nerve ! I did
see some minor attempts to answer the gardening/diet part of the question,
but they were few and scant in information for 'growing' purposes.



Without wanting to add yet another opinionated response to Ignoramus's 'diet
requirements' (Is that name a joke/is the question a joke?)



The original question relating to plants was



'My desire is to plant some pretty, high fat, low carb, edible plants
that are not grains'.



I am not a diet expert, but my understanding is very few plants are high in
fats.

High fats are usually meat/dairy products. The are exceptions of course,
being mainly nuts. Man who would WANT to be on a diet without vegetables
and fruit !!

Back to plants..



Sunflower's can be made into unsaturated oils, so yes they would suit.

Someone mentioned spinach. I may be wrong, but I didn't think it was high in
fats.



You haven't said much about the soil quality, water and direction this wall
faces or how long are you prepared to wait for your crop, because nut trees,
depending on the nut, can be 7 years old before they give any crop.


I would suggest you research a few small nut trees if you intend to be on
this 'diet' for want of a better word, for a prolonged or continuing period.



Pecans and walnuts would probably be best for zone 5 I believe, but too
large for this area. Maybe a couple of hazelnut trees could work. (need
male/female) I believe they only take a few years to yield some fruit.
There are other nut trees of course, and you may find more appropriate
types.



Also Avocado is an excellent high saturated fat fruit, but you need two
trees and they are very frost intolerant. They may manage if you have a
microclimate going in this position (but it doesn't sound like it)



I'd like to say good luck with the 'diet' but it sound's bloody unhealthy to
me.. So, I hope you don't die of a coronary. But good luck in the garden.



Liza

"Ignoramus2437" wrote in message
...
I am on a low carb high fat "paleo diet". In the front yard, we have a
concrete retaining wall that is a boundary of our land. Beyond the
retaining wall, 3 feet lower, is a public sidewalk. I rented a monster
tiller recently, and tilled a 24" strip of land immediately adjacent
to the retaining wall. (did a lot of other tilling to plant a lawn
elsewhere).

My desire is to plant some pretty, high fat, low carb, edible plants
that are not grains.

I live in Zone 5 (N Illinois).

One plant that I can think of is sunflowers. Maybe I will throw some
corn into it, for looks and for other members of my family, but I am
looking for other suggestions.

Thanks!

i

Ignoramus26859 said:

In article , Pat Kiewicz wrote:

I don't believe the diet *caused* the cancer but rather *promoted*
its growth. (The cancer was diffuse rather than a discrete tumor,
therefore not removeable.)

What promotes tumor growth is higher level of blood sugar, which you
would typically get on a high carb diet.

He'd been on ultra-low carb diet for a number of years...

Best advice, based on years of reading (in science and nutrition):
eat plenty of nutrient-dense fruits and vegetables.

That is not incompatible with low carbing. I am low carbing and I eat
more vegs and fruits than most average people. My fruits are peppers
and tomatoes. (they are technically fruits, although I tend to think
about them as vegs)

I hope you prefer the sweet, ripe peppers to the green ones. Far more
nutritious.

Blueberries are among the most phyto-chemically rich fruits you can eat.
Plus dark-colored grapes and plums. How about peaches and colorful
melons?

As for veggies, diet that discourages you from eating carrots and deep orange
sweet potatoes is silly.

Final word.
--
Pat in Plymouth MI ('someplace.net' is comcast)

Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
(attributed to Don Marti)

Ignoramus26859 said:

In article , Pat Kiewicz wrote:

I don't believe the diet *caused* the cancer but rather *promoted*
its growth. (The cancer was diffuse rather than a discrete tumor,
therefore not removeable.)

What promotes tumor growth is higher level of blood sugar, which you
would typically get on a high carb diet.

He'd been on ultra-low carb diet for a number of years...

Best advice, based on years of reading (in science and nutrition):
eat plenty of nutrient-dense fruits and vegetables.

That is not incompatible with low carbing. I am low carbing and I eat
more vegs and fruits than most average people. My fruits are peppers
and tomatoes. (they are technically fruits, although I tend to think
about them as vegs)

I hope you prefer the sweet, ripe peppers to the green ones. Far more
nutritious.

Blueberries are among the most phyto-chemically rich fruits you can eat.
Plus dark-colored grapes and plums. How about peaches and colorful
melons?

As for veggies, diet that discourages you from eating carrots and deep orange
sweet potatoes is silly.

Final word.
--
Pat in Plymouth MI ('someplace.net' is comcast)

Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
(attributed to Don Marti)

Pat Kiewicz wrote:

I hope you prefer the sweet, ripe peppers to the green ones. Far more
nutritious.

Blueberries are among the most phyto-chemically rich fruits you can eat.
Plus dark-colored grapes and plums. How about peaches and colorful
melons?

As for veggies, diet that discourages you from eating carrots and deep orange
sweet potatoes is silly.

Final word.

Agreed. I'm sure my lo-carb bud Ruth (RPM1) will probably jump in but
the secret to low-carb diets is this:

When you eliminate the carbs, you're also eliminating a huge vector for
high fat, high calorie junk and this may be why some people lose weight
on the diet. No bread means no butter or high-fat, high-cal spreads, no
Fettucini Alfredo or other cream sauces for the pasta, no butter and
sour cream on the potatoes, no cake or sweets, and so forth and so on.

The basic equation still boils down to total calories consumed vs. total
calories expended.

Mary

Pat Kiewicz wrote:

I hope you prefer the sweet, ripe peppers to the green ones. Far more
nutritious.

Blueberries are among the most phyto-chemically rich fruits you can eat.
Plus dark-colored grapes and plums. How about peaches and colorful
melons?

As for veggies, diet that discourages you from eating carrots and deep orange
sweet potatoes is silly.

Final word.

Agreed. I'm sure my lo-carb bud Ruth (RPM1) will probably jump in but
the secret to low-carb diets is this:

When you eliminate the carbs, you're also eliminating a huge vector for
high fat, high calorie junk and this may be why some people lose weight
on the diet. No bread means no butter or high-fat, high-cal spreads, no
Fettucini Alfredo or other cream sauces for the pasta, no butter and
sour cream on the potatoes, no cake or sweets, and so forth and so on.

The basic equation still boils down to total calories consumed vs. total
calories expended.

Mary

Pat Kiewicz wrote:

I hope you prefer the sweet, ripe peppers to the green ones. Far more
nutritious.

Blueberries are among the most phyto-chemically rich fruits you can eat.
Plus dark-colored grapes and plums. How about peaches and colorful
melons?

As for veggies, diet that discourages you from eating carrots and deep orange
sweet potatoes is silly.

Final word.

Agreed. I'm sure my lo-carb bud Ruth (RPM1) will probably jump in but
the secret to low-carb diets is this:

When you eliminate the carbs, you're also eliminating a huge vector for
high fat, high calorie junk and this may be why some people lose weight
on the diet. No bread means no butter or high-fat, high-cal spreads, no
Fettucini Alfredo or other cream sauces for the pasta, no butter and
sour cream on the potatoes, no cake or sweets, and so forth and so on.

The basic equation still boils down to total calories consumed vs. total
calories expended.

Mary