Pat Meadows wrote:

On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 17:07:27 -0500, Aaron Baugher
wrote:



Main Entry: veg·an

: a strict vegetarian who consumes no animal food or dairy
products; also : one who abstains from using animal products
(as leather)

This one's consistent too, but I'd think it'd be awfully expensive to
get a balanced diet with enough protein.


No, not at all. If anything it's cheap: but it does require
cooking - usually more time-consuming cooking than a hunk of
meat.

This is the wonderful thing about meat: it's a cinch to
cook. This is why I'm not a vegetarian at the moment,
mostly.

Pat


I havn't figured out where vegans and other strict orthodox vegetarians get
their vitamin B12.

Bob

zxcvbob wrote:

I havn't figured out where vegans and other strict orthodox vegetarians
get their vitamin B12.

Bob


Most get it from all the insects in their food. I doubt most vegetarians
realize how much insect material is allowed in common foods like peanut
butter and bread. And then there are all the poor insects that these
savage vegetarians devour alive in their organic produce.

The few that manage to avoid sufficient animal protein in the form of
insects get their B-12 by injection after being hospitalized for
pernicious anemia.

Lorenzo L. Love
http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove

“A people living under the perpetual menace of war and invasion is very
easy to govern. It demands no social reforms. It does not haggle over
expenditures on armaments and military equipment. It pays without
discussion, it ruins itself, and that is an excellent thing for the
syndicates of financiers and manufacturers for whom patriotic terrors
are an abundant source of gain.”
Anatole France

On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 20:44:19 -0500, zxcvbob wrote in
rec.gardens.edible:

I havn't figured out where vegans and other strict orthodox vegetarians get
their vitamin B12.

What foods provide vitamin B12?

Vitamin B12 is naturally found in animal foods including fish, milk and milk
products, eggs, meat, and poultry. Fortified breakfast cereals are an excellent
source of vitamin B12 and a particularly valuable source for vegetarians.
--
Gardening Zones
Canada Zone 5a
United States Zone 3a
Near Ottawa, Ontario

On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 20:44:19 -0500, zxcvbob
wrote:

I havn't figured out where vegans and other strict orthodox vegetarians get
their vitamin B12.

Bob


http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/b12.htm

On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 20:44:19 -0500, zxcvbob
wrote:




I havn't figured out where vegans and other strict orthodox vegetarians get
their vitamin B12.


B-12 supplements are one source.

I think tempeh and a few other non-animal foods have B12,
but I'm not sure.

Pat

On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 02:34:04 GMT, "Lorenzo L. Love"
wrote:

The few that manage to avoid sufficient animal protein in the form of
insects get their B-12 by injection after being hospitalized for
pernicious anemia.


I would think that many vegans know enough about nutrition
to take B12 supplements and avoid the problem.

The ones I've known certainly did this.

Pat

On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 01:17:00 -0400, Jim Carter
wrote:

On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 20:44:19 -0500, zxcvbob wrote in
rec.gardens.edible:

I havn't figured out where vegans and other strict orthodox vegetarians get
their vitamin B12.

What foods provide vitamin B12?


See: http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/b12.htm#reliable

-------------------------------------------------------
Reliable Vegan Sources of Vitamin B12

A number of reliable vegan food sources for vitamin B12 are
known. One brand of nutritional yeast, Red Star T-6635+, has
been tested and shown to contain active vitamin B12.

snip

The RDA (which includes a safety factor) for adults for
vitamin B12 is 2.4 micrograms daily [4]. 2.4 micrograms of
vitamin B12 are provided by a little less than 1 Tablespoon
of Vegetarian Support Formula (Red Star T-6635+) nutritional
yeast. A number of the recipes in this book contain
nutritional yeast.

Another source of vitamin B12 is fortified cereal. We
recommend checking the label of your favorite cereal since
manufacturers have been known to stop including vitamin B12.

Other sources of vitamin B12 are vitamin B12-fortified soy
milk, vitamin B12-fortified meat analogues (food made from
wheat gluten or soybeans to resemble meat, poultry or fish),
and vitamin B12 supplements. There are vitamin supplements
which do not contain animal products.

Vegans who choose to use a vitamin B12 supplement, either as
a single supplement or in a multi-vitamin should use
supplements at least several times a week. Even though a
supplement may contain many times the recom-mended level of
vitamin B12, when vitamin B12 intake is high, not as much
appears to be absorbed. This means in order to meet your
needs, you should take the vitamin several times a week.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Pat

zxcvbob wrote in message ...
Pat Meadows wrote:

On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 17:07:27 -0500, Aaron Baugher
wrote:



Main Entry: veg·an

: a strict vegetarian who consumes no animal food or dairy
products; also : one who abstains from using animal products
(as leather)

This one's consistent too, but I'd think it'd be awfully expensive to
get a balanced diet with enough protein.


No, not at all. If anything it's cheap: but it does require
cooking - usually more time-consuming cooking than a hunk of
meat.

This is the wonderful thing about meat: it's a cinch to
cook. This is why I'm not a vegetarian at the moment,
mostly.

Pat


I havn't figured out where vegans and other strict orthodox vegetarians get
their vitamin B12.

Bob

Long story. Where do cows get their B12? Bacteria (including those in
our guts) produce very large quantities of B12 compared to our needs
(excrement of most animals has large concentrations of B12). However,
B12 can be absorbed only at the top of the intestine. Things that
people intake (including alcohol and coffee) make the top of the
intestine unfriendly to such bacteria. One hypothesis is that a clean
life allow those bacteria to live higher in the intestine, where B12
can be absorbed.

Also, dirt from your garden is a significant source of B12 (think
manure and/or compost, and B12 is a very long-lived molecule). There
is a study on a iranian vegan community where B-12 deficiency was not
observed. Possible explanations included the fact that they used
"night soil" in their gardens (they composted and reused their own
waste). For the coffee-swilling vegan, there are always vitamin pills.
Or brewer's yeast.

In article ,
(simy1) wrote:

zxcvbob wrote in message
...
Pat Meadows wrote:

On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 17:07:27 -0500, Aaron Baugher
wrote:



Main Entry: veg·an

: a strict vegetarian who consumes no animal food or dairy
products; also : one who abstains from using animal products
(as leather)

This one's consistent too, but I'd think it'd be awfully expensive to
get a balanced diet with enough protein.


No, not at all. If anything it's cheap: but it does require
cooking - usually more time-consuming cooking than a hunk of
meat.

This is the wonderful thing about meat: it's a cinch to
cook. This is why I'm not a vegetarian at the moment,
mostly.

Pat


I havn't figured out where vegans and other strict orthodox vegetarians get
their vitamin B12.

Bob

Long story. Where do cows get their B12? Bacteria (including those in
our guts) produce very large quantities of B12 compared to our needs
(excrement of most animals has large concentrations of B12). However,
B12 can be absorbed only at the top of the intestine. Things that
people intake (including alcohol and coffee) make the top of the
intestine unfriendly to such bacteria. One hypothesis is that a clean
life allow those bacteria to live higher in the intestine, where B12
can be absorbed.

Also, dirt from your garden is a significant source of B12 (think
manure and/or compost, and B12 is a very long-lived molecule). There
is a study on a iranian vegan community where B-12 deficiency was not
observed. Possible explanations included the fact that they used
"night soil" in their gardens (they composted and reused their own
waste). For the coffee-swilling vegan, there are always vitamin pills.
Or brewer's yeast.

Ruminants manufacture the B-complex vitamins in their digestive systems.
(I'd have to look at my notes from an animal nutrition class to tell you
exactly which chamber of the stomach makes it.) If it's a bacterial
synthesis, they'd make it in their rumens -- the first chamber.

Don't know about mono-gastrics (people, pigs, horses). I'd have to look
it up.

Jan

Plus the information given states that B-12 is a long lived substance that
stays in the body for a very long time. Anyone who became vegan as a teen or
young adult need not worry about this issue til thier late 50s. And that is
assuming they consume no additional sources of B-12 from the point they
become vegan on. The only ones have may have some reason for concern are
those who become vegans from birth, which would have to be a decision
brought on them by thier parents, who likely know enough to supply a varied
diet...

"Pat Meadows" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 02:34:04 GMT, "Lorenzo L. Love"
wrote:

The few that manage to avoid sufficient animal protein in the form of
insects get their B-12 by injection after being hospitalized for
pernicious anemia.


I would think that many vegans know enough about nutrition
to take B12 supplements and avoid the problem.

The ones I've known certainly did this.

Pat

According to the http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/b12.htm B-12 is made in the
large intestines of humans. It is also sopposedly unavailable to the body
there becuase the large intestine cannot absorb B-12 into the bloodstream
there. One would assume composting humanure would make this B-12 available
to a person...

"Jan Flora" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(simy1) wrote:

zxcvbob wrote in message
...
Pat Meadows wrote:

On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 17:07:27 -0500, Aaron Baugher
wrote:



Main Entry: veg·an

: a strict vegetarian who consumes no animal food or dairy
products; also : one who abstains from using animal products
(as leather)

This one's consistent too, but I'd think it'd be awfully expensive
to
get a balanced diet with enough protein.


No, not at all. If anything it's cheap: but it does require
cooking - usually more time-consuming cooking than a hunk of
meat.

This is the wonderful thing about meat: it's a cinch to
cook. This is why I'm not a vegetarian at the moment,
mostly.

Pat


I havn't figured out where vegans and other strict orthodox
vegetarians get
their vitamin B12.

Bob

Long story. Where do cows get their B12? Bacteria (including those in
our guts) produce very large quantities of B12 compared to our needs
(excrement of most animals has large concentrations of B12). However,
B12 can be absorbed only at the top of the intestine. Things that
people intake (including alcohol and coffee) make the top of the
intestine unfriendly to such bacteria. One hypothesis is that a clean
life allow those bacteria to live higher in the intestine, where B12
can be absorbed.

Also, dirt from your garden is a significant source of B12 (think
manure and/or compost, and B12 is a very long-lived molecule). There
is a study on a iranian vegan community where B-12 deficiency was not
observed. Possible explanations included the fact that they used
"night soil" in their gardens (they composted and reused their own
waste). For the coffee-swilling vegan, there are always vitamin pills.
Or brewer's yeast.

Ruminants manufacture the B-complex vitamins in their digestive systems.
(I'd have to look at my notes from an animal nutrition class to tell you
exactly which chamber of the stomach makes it.) If it's a bacterial
synthesis, they'd make it in their rumens -- the first chamber.

Don't know about mono-gastrics (people, pigs, horses). I'd have to look
it up.

Jan

(Jan Flora) wrote in message ...
waste). For the coffee-swilling vegan, there are always vitamin pills.
Or brewer's yeast.

Ruminants manufacture the B-complex vitamins in their digestive systems.
(I'd have to look at my notes from an animal nutrition class to tell you
exactly which chamber of the stomach makes it.) If it's a bacterial
synthesis, they'd make it in their rumens -- the first chamber.

Don't know about mono-gastrics (people, pigs, horses). I'd have to look
it up.

Jan

The bacteria in our gut who are responsible for B-12 do not appreciate
an acid environment (both coffee and alcohol have low pH). It is
possible that B12 in cows be produced in the intestine also. Either
way, all manures are known to have large amounts of B12.

On 10 Aug 2003 13:34:26 -0700, (simy1) wrote:

(Jan Flora) wrote in message ...
waste). For the coffee-swilling vegan, there are always vitamin pills.
Or brewer's yeast.

Ruminants manufacture the B-complex vitamins in their digestive systems.
(I'd have to look at my notes from an animal nutrition class to tell you
exactly which chamber of the stomach makes it.) If it's a bacterial
synthesis, they'd make it in their rumens -- the first chamber.

Don't know about mono-gastrics (people, pigs, horses). I'd have to look
it up.

Jan

The bacteria in our gut who are responsible for B-12 do not appreciate
an acid environment (both coffee and alcohol have low pH). It is
possible that B12 in cows be produced in the intestine also. Either
way, all manures are known to have large amounts of B12.

I would be most interested in how you established the pH of "alcohol".
Any hints? What do you suppose those bacteria make of the pH in our
stomachs (anywhere from 1.0 - 4.0) Why would the very low pH of our
stomach contents fail to bother these bacteria while that of some
foods are presumed to do so after they have passed the stomach?

B.Server wrote in message . ..
On 10 Aug 2003 13:34:26 -0700, (simy1) wrote:

(Jan Flora) wrote in message ...
waste). For the coffee-swilling vegan, there are always vitamin pills.
Or brewer's yeast.

Ruminants manufacture the B-complex vitamins in their digestive systems.
(I'd have to look at my notes from an animal nutrition class to tell you
exactly which chamber of the stomach makes it.) If it's a bacterial
synthesis, they'd make it in their rumens -- the first chamber.

Don't know about mono-gastrics (people, pigs, horses). I'd have to look
it up.

Jan

The bacteria in our gut who are responsible for B-12 do not appreciate
an acid environment (both coffee and alcohol have low pH). It is
possible that B12 in cows be produced in the intestine also. Either
way, all manures are known to have large amounts of B12.

I would be most interested in how you established the pH of "alcohol".
Any hints? What do you suppose those bacteria make of the pH in our
stomachs (anywhere from 1.0 - 4.0) Why would the very low pH of our
stomach contents fail to bother these bacteria while that of some
foods are presumed to do so after they have passed the stomach?

I see what you are saying. The pH of wine is typically around 4.5.
Hard cider goes down to 3.8 or so, though I do not know the pH of beer
(probably substantially higher). I know very few people who drink pure
alcohol. Most Bacteria do not live in the stomach, as you suggest,
because it is too acid. I can only assume that coffee and alcohol
either go straight through (as most liquids do), or preserve some of
their acidity.

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Xref: kermit rec.gardens.edible:61809

Organization: University of Cambridge, England
Keywords:


In article ,
(simy1) writes:
| B.Server wrote in message . ..
| On 10 Aug 2003 13:34:26 -0700, (simy1) wrote:
|
| The bacteria in our gut who are responsible for B-12 do not appreciate
| an acid environment (both coffee and alcohol have low pH). It is
| possible that B12 in cows be produced in the intestine also. Either
| way, all manures are known to have large amounts of B12.
|
| I would be most interested in how you established the pH of "alcohol".
| Any hints? What do you suppose those bacteria make of the pH in our
| stomachs (anywhere from 1.0 - 4.0) Why would the very low pH of our
| stomach contents fail to bother these bacteria while that of some
| foods are presumed to do so after they have passed the stomach?
|
| I see what you are saying. The pH of wine is typically around 4.5.
| Hard cider goes down to 3.8 or so, though I do not know the pH of beer
| (probably substantially higher). I know very few people who drink pure
| alcohol. Most Bacteria do not live in the stomach, as you suggest,
| because it is too acid. I can only assume that coffee and alcohol
| either go straight through (as most liquids do), or preserve some of
| their acidity.

Beer is rather higher, yes. You have missed most of the consequences
of what B. Server said.

pH is meaningful only for compounds that ionise; alcohol is not
one such, unless my memory is at fault. Coffee is not particularly
acid. And acid stomach contents tend to get neutralised as they pass
further down the gut, though I don't know the mechanisms, which is
why bacteria can live in our intestine at all.

I don't know who first invented the pseudo-science that you are
quoting, but I have seen it before, and it is complete nonsense.
So, I am pretty certain, is the theory that humans can thrive for
a few decades with no vitamin B-12 intake at all.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.