I'm debating whether or not to use Miracle Grow on my vegetable garden. I
like the idea of organic gardening, but don't know what to fertilize with.
It also seems that Miracle Grow gardens would have more yield. Opinions?

Also, how often should I water and fertilize? I know it depends on
temperature, climate, etc. Let's assume Northeastern U.S. with an already
wet season. I've held off watering because of it, but what should I do if,
say, there was a week with no rain? Water two or three times that week?
Thanks.

"Seeker" wrote:

I'm debating whether or not to use Miracle Grow on my vegetable garden. I
like the idea of organic gardening, but don't know what to fertilize with.
It also seems that Miracle Grow gardens would have more yield. Opinions?

Also, how often should I water and fertilize? I know it depends on
temperature, climate, etc. Let's assume Northeastern U.S. with an already
wet season. I've held off watering because of it, but what should I do if,
say, there was a week with no rain? Water two or three times that week?
Thanks.

You could always try 50/50 and see which do better for you--and which
you like.

I umixed in some old Miracle Grow potting mix in a window box that I
used for transplants. I left a damaged pepper plant there (i knocked
it over and screwed up its root when I removed another transplant).
That is now my best looking pepper plant. I've decided to leave it and
see how it produces. (it may turn out being too green and too little
fruit).

My tomatoes are doing great in the ground--which I prepared with
humus, manure, blood meal and bone meal (the soil was heavy with
potassium already), plus some additions like eggshells for calcium,
liquid seaweed fertilizer, peat moss & vermiculite. I'm also planting
heavily(close) in the ground and so far doing well. So far both
methods are doing well.

However the humus and soil additives in the ground will help build
better soil for next year(my goal). The miracle grow will need new
batches of fertilizer.

DiGiTAL_ViNYL (no email)

Seeker wrote:

I'm debating whether or not to use Miracle Grow on my vegetable garden. I
like the idea of organic gardening, but don't know what to fertilize with.
It also seems that Miracle Grow gardens would have more yield. Opinions?


Using Miracle Grow exclusively will deplete your soil. There is no need to
add fertilizers to a fully organic soil, although soil amendments may be
useful from time to time.

I have used no 'fertilizer' except compost for years and have peas (planted
April 19) that the seed packet assured me would go only 3'-4' that are
already (June 23) over 7' tall. From approx. 100 sq ft of strawberries I
have been picking 2#-4# a day for the past 10 days. I have over 40 pints of
jam to prove it.

The first year, yields from an organic garden are quite a bit lower than
from a chemical garden. The soil takes time to heal. The second year it
will nearly match the yield of chemicals. The third year it will start to
pull ahead slightly. From there on out, the organic garden is the champ.

Once the soil is built up, you will never turn to chemicals again. Until it
gets built up, you will never believe an organic gardener can out-produce
Miracle Grow.

But we can.

Bill
--
I do not post my address to news groups. If you need to contact me directly,
post a request, along with YOUR email address to this newsgroup.

Seeker wrote:

I'm debating whether or not to use Miracle Grow on my vegetable garden. I
like the idea of organic gardening, but don't know what to fertilize with.
It also seems that Miracle Grow gardens would have more yield. Opinions?


It doesn't have to be an either/or decision. You can add lots of organic
matter to build up your soil, and use a little bit of miracle grow to feed
the plants while the soil is doin' its thing. Foliar application of
miracle grow or rapid-gro won't drive away the earthworms like granular
fertlizer might.

BTW, I use cheap granular fertlizer on my corn, and compost and an
occasional dose of miracle grow for everything else. I did use some "super
bloom" on my peas because they love phosphorus and I didn't really wanna
use superphosphate.

My brother in Texas used fish emulsion on his peppers that grew 9 feet tall
last year, but I can't find fish emulsion anywhere to try it.

Best regards,
Bob

The first year that I had a garden I used Miracle Grow, and frankly I
did not have an incredible harvest with super sized veg. The next year
I began to use organic methods, mostly because it was more interesting
to me. An organic garden does require doing (I think) a bit more
research but that's what the winter is for! Beyond doing the research
or asking the questions (this group is very helpful) the organic
ingredients are very often no harder to aquire than any chemical
fertalizer. I do not live anywhere near to a Garden Centre and have
found everything I ever needed in my immediate neibourhood.

My yields are better now but that is probably due to the knowledge I
have built up over the last 4 years about what different veg like. I
would obviously have figured out some of it even if I had continued to
use Miracle Grow, but speaking for myself, because I was motivated to
do research for an organic garden I learnt a great deal more than I
would have.

As to specific suggestions about what you should use or frequency of
watering, that would depend on what you are growing. All the Miracle
Grow in the world won't help you if you over or under water.
Personally, in general, I water the established plants fairly well,
about twice a week. I try not to pamper the plants too much, they need
to be able to "take the heat" so to speak.

My watering comments depend greatly upon what you are growing and
where you are located too. I am in Toronto, Canada; someone in Texas
will probably have very different suggestions.

Hope that helps, somewhat.

jcm




"Seeker" wrote in message .. .
I'm debating whether or not to use Miracle Grow on my vegetable garden. I
like the idea of organic gardening, but don't know what to fertilize with.
It also seems that Miracle Grow gardens would have more yield. Opinions?

Also, how often should I water and fertilize? I know it depends on
temperature, climate, etc. Let's assume Northeastern U.S. with an already
wet season. I've held off watering because of it, but what should I do if,
say, there was a week with no rain? Water two or three times that week?
Thanks.

Using Miracle Grow exclusively will deplete your soil. There is no need to
add fertilizers to a fully organic soil, although soil amendments may be
useful from time to time.

I forgot to mention that when I first tilled the soil, I used Nutrabrew and
peat moss on the suggestion of the local garden place. I have a heavy clay
soil.

I have used no 'fertilizer' except compost for years and have peas
(planted
April 19) that the seed packet assured me would go only 3'-4' that are
already (June 23) over 7' tall. From approx. 100 sq ft of strawberries I
have been picking 2#-4# a day for the past 10 days. I have over 40 pints
of
jam to prove it.

That's great! I'd love to have a large yield with organic gardening. It
has a 'feel good' factor about it.

Once the soil is built up, you will never turn to chemicals again. Until
it
gets built up, you will never believe an organic gardener can out-produce
Miracle Grow.

I guess I have some research to do. I think I'll visit the local garden
shop again and ask what I can do organically.

On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 00:18:36 -0500, zxcvbob
wrote:



My brother in Texas used fish emulsion on his peppers that grew 9 feet tall
last year, but I can't find fish emulsion anywhere to try it.

I've had very good results with fish emulsion.

I can buy it at a local Agway (farm-and-feed store). But if
I couldn't buy it locally, I'd mail order it.

http://www.biconet.com/soil/fishEmulsion.html

http://www.groworganic.com/a/a1.html...go ry=catalog

Pat

On 23 Jun 2003 23:11:53 -0700, (Joanne)
wrote:



As to specific suggestions about what you should use or frequency of
watering, that would depend on what you are growing. All the Miracle
Grow in the world won't help you if you over or under water.
Personally, in general, I water the established plants fairly well,
about twice a week. I try not to pamper the plants too much, they need
to be able to "take the heat" so to speak.

My watering comments depend greatly upon what you are growing and
where you are located too. I am in Toronto, Canada; someone in Texas
will probably have very different suggestions.


This has always been my policy too (except - of course -
that newly transplanted plants need more watering until they
are established, as you mention).

But this year has been very strange here (northern PA -
probably most of the eastern USA/Canada). Constant rain for
the entire spring (at least the last eight weeks), and cool
temperatures throughout. Nothing but clouds or rain.
Essentially no sun for all that time.

Now all of a sudden, it got into the high 80s yesterday and
didn't rain. We'll have no rain until Saturday and the
temperatures will be in the high 80s or low 90s throughout
that time. I think the plants are going to have a rough
time, they're certainly not used to this.

So we'll probably water a bit more often - maybe three times
this week - until they become more accustomed to summer. I
hope. I hope they don't just keel over and die.

Pat

I'm debating whether or not to use Miracle Grow on my vegetable garden. I
like the idea of organic gardening, but don't know what to fertilize with.
It also seems that Miracle Grow gardens would have more yield. Opinions?

Also, how often should I water and fertilize? I know it depends on
temperature, climate, etc. Let's assume Northeastern U.S. with an already
wet season. I've held off watering because of it, but what should I do if,
say, there was a week with no rain? Water two or three times that week?
Thanks.
For those of us who began growing vegetables for the table, back when all water
had to drwn from a well or hauled from a creek, learned to grow without any
irrigation. Except in drought years, I still do not irrigate, ( 55 years in Va,
12 in Ga) Of course those of you in semi-arid area will need to and it does
help to spplement rainfall during a prolong gry spell, If the earth is dy to a
depth of six inches then irrigation is beneficial, but enought to wet the soil
to six inches, IMHO shallow watering does more harm than good.

As for Miracle Gro. It is well balanced 1 part to 2 parts P to 1 part K and
also contains all the trace elements making it adequate for hydroponics. The
downside is that it is an instantly available source intended primarily as a
foliar feed which means you have to keep applying it. It is also expensive. O
course most of the commercial "organic" fertilizers are also. I only user when
I need to "jump- start" a transplant. I havn't had the problem, but it is also
useful to "jump-start" plants suffering from lack of fertility as in yellow
spindly plants. Fish products have a high ntrogen to to P-K ratio and while
great but expensive for nitrogen loving plants like corn and Brassicas are not
effective for the majority of my vegetables. As is the case of all the
concentrated froms of nutrient, these do nothing to condition the soil. It is
sort of like trying to live on the cerel "Total" . Plants need fiber too. Which
means adding decompoed or decomposing vegetative matter to the soil. For those
of us with larger plantings that means green manure crops and plowing down all
vegetation that is not sold or eaten, There is no quicker way to "kill" a soil
than to strip it bare, Some of the old folks of my Youth were still burning
their fields off to make plowing easier. Those fields were abandoned to pines
before I was a teenager.

"Pat Meadows" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 00:18:36 -0500, zxcvbob
wrote:



My brother in Texas used fish emulsion on his peppers that grew 9 feet
tall
last year, but I can't find fish emulsion anywhere to try it.

I've had very good results with fish emulsion.

I can buy it at a local Agway (farm-and-feed store). But if
I couldn't buy it locally, I'd mail order it.

Yeah, fish emulsion is the greatest. I ususally get it at Agway too, but I
get the one with the Kelp in it. It's supposed to help with transplant
shock so I hit the tomatoes and peppers with it when I plant and they do
really well.

I ususally reapply once again in the middle of the season either to the
ground or by spraying on the leaves.

One other good thing is that you get the trace minerals with the emulsion.

Shoot -- can't follow the players without previous quoting. However,

Sometime, someone wrote:

Using Miracle Grow exclusively will deplete your soil. There is no need to
add fertilizers to a fully organic soil, although soil amendments may be
useful from time to time.

I fail to understand how the use of Miracle-Gro can "deplete" soil.
It's simply a soluable fertilizer. I've heard wicked tales of "salts"
being left behind after years of use, but if true, it's still not a
case of soil "depletion."

And it looks like somebody else said:

That's great! I'd love to have a large yield with organic gardening. It
has a 'feel good' factor about it.

Can't argue with feel-good. However, "large yield" is equivalent to
careful attention and (usually) a lot of work, not the chmicals
involved.

It appears as if the same person wrote:

I guess I have some research to do.

which is a very intelligent approach.

I think I'll visit the local garden
shop again and ask what I can do organically.

However, I also am a little skeptical about going to the garden center
for organic advice and supplies. "What can they sell me that has
'organic' on the label?" may not be the organic gardener's advice.

in article , Frogleg at
wrote on 6/25/03 7:08 AM:

I fail to understand how the use of Miracle-Gro can "deplete" soil.
It's simply a soluable fertilizer. I've heard wicked tales of "salts"
being left behind after years of use, but if true, it's still not a
case of soil "depletion."


Miracle-Gro does have some micronutrients but is heavy on the macros such as
KNP.

At one time I was considering Miracle-Gro as the basis for my hydroponic
growing. It was relatively cheap compared to hydroponic formulations.
Hydroponic suppliers really charge an arm and a leg for their material.
Their markup can be on the order of 1000%.

In any event, get hold of a book on hydroponic growing to get an idea of
what is needed. Then you can go to commercial agricultural suppliers to get
the macro ingredients. You can get epsom salt and other ingredients there as
well. For the rest, you can go to a chemical supply house to get copper
manganese, etc. They may also charge a lot, but you need very little of some
of them. You may overdose on boron if you don't watch out.

If you work the soil, you should add organic material from time to time.
That is for soil texture, not nutrition.

Hydroponic growing is about as inorganic as you can go. You can get along
without adding a single carbon atom. The plants can get all they need from
the carbon dioxide in the air. In many ways, the produce is superior to that
provided by "organic" growers.

Bill

"Repeating Decimal" wrote in message
...
in article , Frogleg at
wrote on 6/25/03 7:08 AM:

I fail to understand how the use of Miracle-Gro can "deplete" soil.
It's simply a soluable fertilizer. I've heard wicked tales of "salts"
being left behind after years of use, but if true, it's still not a
case of soil "depletion."


Miracle-Gro does have some micronutrients but is heavy on the macros such
as
KNP.

At one time I was considering Miracle-Gro as the basis for my hydroponic
growing. It was relatively cheap compared to hydroponic formulations.
Hydroponic suppliers really charge an arm and a leg for their material.
Their markup can be on the order of 1000%.

In any event, get hold of a book on hydroponic growing to get an idea of
what is needed. Then you can go to commercial agricultural suppliers to
get
the macro ingredients. You can get epsom salt and other ingredients there
as
well. For the rest, you can go to a chemical supply house to get copper
manganese, etc. They may also charge a lot, but you need very little of
some
of them. You may overdose on boron if you don't watch out.

If you work the soil, you should add organic material from time to time.
That is for soil texture, not nutrition.

Hydroponic growing is about as inorganic as you can go. You can get along
without adding a single carbon atom. The plants can get all they need from
the carbon dioxide in the air. In many ways, the produce is superior to
that
provided by "organic" growers.

Bill


I was quite inmpressed with the giant hydroponic greenhouses in Epcot at
Disneyworld. They use the produce in most of the many restaurants at
Disney. I'd never seen bell pepper plants 15' tall.

JonE

I've got a chile plant producing fruit in just a jam jar full of miracle gro
solution...

Charlie.

"Repeating Decimal" wrote in message
...
in article , Frogleg at
wrote on 6/25/03 7:08 AM:

I fail to understand how the use of Miracle-Gro can "deplete" soil.
It's simply a soluable fertilizer. I've heard wicked tales of "salts"
being left behind after years of use, but if true, it's still not a
case of soil "depletion."


Miracle-Gro does have some micronutrients but is heavy on the macros such
as
KNP.

At one time I was considering Miracle-Gro as the basis for my hydroponic
growing. It was relatively cheap compared to hydroponic formulations.
Hydroponic suppliers really charge an arm and a leg for their material.
Their markup can be on the order of 1000%.

In any event, get hold of a book on hydroponic growing to get an idea of
what is needed. Then you can go to commercial agricultural suppliers to
get
the macro ingredients. You can get epsom salt and other ingredients there
as
well. For the rest, you can go to a chemical supply house to get copper
manganese, etc. They may also charge a lot, but you need very little of
some
of them. You may overdose on boron if you don't watch out.

If you work the soil, you should add organic material from time to time.
That is for soil texture, not nutrition.

Hydroponic growing is about as inorganic as you can go. You can get along
without adding a single carbon atom. The plants can get all they need from
the carbon dioxide in the air. In many ways, the produce is superior to
that
provided by "organic" growers.

Bill

Frogleg wrote:

Shoot -- can't follow the players without previous quoting. However,

Sometime, someone wrote:

Using Miracle Grow exclusively will deplete your soil. There is no need
to add fertilizers to a fully organic soil, although soil amendments may
be useful from time to time.

I fail to understand how the use of Miracle-Gro can "deplete" soil.
It's simply a soluable fertilizer. I've heard wicked tales of "salts"
being left behind after years of use, but if true, it's still not a
case of soil "depletion."


I wrote that.

What follows is a viewpoint. I recognize that there are opposing viewpoints
and accept that I am unlikely to convince those holding the opposing
viewpoint to see things my way. I have no desire to begin a "holy war" over
Miracle Grow or even the foundry waste that passes as fertilizer. However,
your point merits response.

Adding organic material is the act of someone thinking years in advance.
Adding chemical fertilizers is the act of someone thinking only of a single
season.

The problem is not the (one time) Miracle Grow addition. Given time, the
soil will overcome that. The problem is the reliance on it. This reliance
results in an organic material deficiency. This is the depletion of which I
spoke. People who add MG are sidestepping the biological processes that
occur in healthy soil. They aren't feeding the bacteria, earthworms and
other denizens of a healthy soil that each contribute to the health of the
whole. These people tend not to add significant quantities of
humus-producing organic materials. Their soluble nutrients leach out of the
soil / wash away in the rain instead of being fixed in the root zone by
biological factors and held there in the cellulose sponge of decaying
vegetative matter.

Miracle Grow works. So does the vast majority of bagged fertilizer applied
by the ton to millions of acres of farmland over the past 40-50 years. But
they all work best on a soil that is already healthy. Big point. If the
soil isn't essentially healthy, then the "wow" effect will be missing from
the fertilizer. If organic material is added to a soil, it will remain
healthy indefinitely. The reverse is also true.

The first year, a ton of fertilizer produces great results. The next year it
can take a ton and a quarter to produce the same results, then a ton and
three quarters but the results are not as good, and so on as the organic
materials in the soil become depleted. Miracle Grow is NOT 'complete'
because soil needs a lot more than fertilizer to bear healthy quantities of
healthy crops year after year.

Before starting my garden, I gathered leaves from curbs throughout my
neighborhood the previous fall. That meant that I had tons of 'browns' for
a compost pile but almost no 'greens' in the spring. So, finding a bunch of
MG in the garage (we had just bought the house) I added Miracle Grow to get
the needed nitrogen. It worked. However, by the time it got to my soil, it
was no longer MG.

I am not anti-MG. I am anti-reliance-on-MG. A quick shot of bagged
fertilizer on an organic soil will give a quick shot of increased yield.
But the fertilizer boost isn't repeatable indefinitely. The time has come
to pay the piper ... a lot of our cropland soils are depleted.

Hitting my garden with a cheap shot of fertilizer is, in the end, expensive
because it sidesteps the natural processes that serve to keep my soil
healthy. How healthy? I have canned 25 pints (not jelly jars) of strawberry
jam this year off just 100 sq ft of strawberry bed. The bed is just now
winding down. I haven't added anything except water, compost and a
sprinkling of greensand to that bed in two years.

I know it may be difficult to reconcile the concept of adding something with
the concept of depletion but I have attempted to outline how it occurs and
that, I think, answers your question. If I gave a convincing answer, great.
But I really don't expect to change anyone's mind.

Bill
--
I do not post my address to news groups.