I have a couple of large compost bins on my allotment which I regularly
fill with compostable materials from home, but this only accounts for a
few percent.

For the most part, I go to the local riding stables where they bag up
the horse manure and leave it outside for people to take for free.

In the winter time, when the horses are inside the stables, the mix is
heavy with straw and bedding. But now in the warmer months with the
horses outside , it is mainly stuff gathered straight off the paddock
areas where the horses pass their days.

The thing is this. The bins are 4'x3'x3' and I just do not have the
energy or strength to turn them. So , in effect they are cold compost
heaps. I let the contents rot down over a 2 year period.

But is there a danger that the pathogens in the horse dung will not die
off (as they would if I were operating a hot heap) and that my family
could become seriously ill if I use this composted material on my
vegetable plot even if it is 2 years old?

Ed
(South-East UK)

"Ed" ex@directory wrote in message
o.uk...
I have a couple of large compost bins on my allotment which I regularly
fill with compostable materials from home, but this only accounts for a few
percent.

For the most part, I go to the local riding stables where they bag up the
horse manure and leave it outside for people to take for free.

In the winter time, when the horses are inside the stables, the mix is
heavy with straw and bedding. But now in the warmer months with the
horses outside , it is mainly stuff gathered straight off the paddock
areas where the horses pass their days.

The thing is this. The bins are 4'x3'x3' and I just do not have the
energy or strength to turn them. So , in effect they are cold compost
heaps. I let the contents rot down over a 2 year period.

But is there a danger that the pathogens in the horse dung will not die
off (as they would if I were operating a hot heap) and that my family
could become seriously ill if I use this composted material on my
vegetable plot even if it is 2 years old?


There is no concern with pathogens with manure from vegetarian beasts except
perhaps if you know the beast to be ill with a disease transmittable to
humans. In your case I'd be more concerned with viable weed seeds.

"Ed" wrote ...
I have a couple of large compost bins on my allotment which I regularly
fill with compostable materials from home, but this only accounts for a few
percent.

For the most part, I go to the local riding stables where they bag up the
horse manure and leave it outside for people to take for free.

In the winter time, when the horses are inside the stables, the mix is
heavy with straw and bedding. But now in the warmer months with the
horses outside , it is mainly stuff gathered straight off the paddock
areas where the horses pass their days.

The thing is this. The bins are 4'x3'x3' and I just do not have the
energy or strength to turn them. So , in effect they are cold compost
heaps. I let the contents rot down over a 2 year period.

But is there a danger that the pathogens in the horse dung will not die
off (as they would if I were operating a hot heap) and that my family
could become seriously ill if I use this composted material on my
vegetable plot even if it is 2 years old?

Pathogens in Horse dung? Please advise what and any scientific papers that
back it up. I know it is a big carrier of Tetanus but not heard about
anything else of concern.
"No major human disease has ever been accurately attributed to the intimate
contact human beings have had with horses for thousands of years.
Veterinarians and vet students probably have the greatest exposure to true
risk from horse manure. The horse has a very inefficient gut: it's a one-way
throughput system. Horses are physiologically incapable of vomiting or
regurgitating. If something gets stuck on the way through, the only way to
get it out is by surgery or physical intervention. As a result, you will
often find vets armpit deep under a horse's tail. Nevertheless, there has
never been a documented case of veterinarians contracting illness as a
result of this rather extreme true exposure to horse manure."

We use well rotted 1 year old stuff and have never had any trouble.

--
Regards
Bob Hobden
just W. of London

On 15/07/09 16:12, brooklyn1 wrote:
"Ed" ex@directory wrote in message
o.uk...
I have a couple of large compost bins on my allotment which I regularly
fill with compostable materials from home, but this only accounts for a few
percent.

For the most part, I go to the local riding stables where they bag up the
horse manure and leave it outside for people to take for free.

In the winter time, when the horses are inside the stables, the mix is
heavy with straw and bedding. But now in the warmer months with the
horses outside , it is mainly stuff gathered straight off the paddock
areas where the horses pass their days.

The thing is this. The bins are 4'x3'x3' and I just do not have the
energy or strength to turn them. So , in effect they are cold compost
heaps. I let the contents rot down over a 2 year period.

But is there a danger that the pathogens in the horse dung will not die
off (as they would if I were operating a hot heap) and that my family
could become seriously ill if I use this composted material on my
vegetable plot even if it is 2 years old?


There is no concern with pathogens with manure from vegetarian beasts except
perhaps if you know the beast to be ill with a disease transmittable to
humans. In your case I'd be more concerned with viable weed seeds.



Weeds aren't a great problem for me.. I got the time and I love weeding
most days. Most of my weeds anyway are in-blown from other plots so I
always expect them.

But thanks for the re-assurance on the pathogens though. I'd hate to
grow my own crops and then find I make my family ill.

Ed

In article ,
brooklyn1 wrote:
"Ed" ex@directory wrote in message
news:iP6dnZNfUIW_c8DXnZ2dnUVZ8ridnZ2d@brightview. co.uk...

The thing is this. The bins are 4'x3'x3' and I just do not have the
energy or strength to turn them. So , in effect they are cold compost
heaps. I let the contents rot down over a 2 year period.

But is there a danger that the pathogens in the horse dung will not die
off (as they would if I were operating a hot heap) and that my family
could become seriously ill if I use this composted material on my
vegetable plot even if it is 2 years old?

There is no concern with pathogens with manure from vegetarian beasts except
perhaps if you know the beast to be ill with a disease transmittable to
humans. In your case I'd be more concerned with viable weed seeds.

That is essentially true. There are very few diseases with sufficiently
resistant spores that they will survive any form of composting, and most
of those are extremely implausible. None will contaminate vegetables,
anyway, and the only risk is getting the compost into a cut, eating it
if you don't wash it off, etc.

The only ones that are at all likely are carried by cats and other
carnivores, as you say. Worrying about tetanus and anthrax is not a
productive activity ....


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article ,
Bob Hobden wrote:

Pathogens in Horse dung? Please advise what and any scientific papers that
back it up. I know it is a big carrier of Tetanus but not heard about
anything else of concern.

Try anthrax.

However, with both tetanus and anthrax, you are likely to have trouble
only if the dung comes from a stable where they shovel dead horses
out with the bedding. Not generally the case ....


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 15/07/09 16:24, Bob Hobden wrote:
"Ed" wrote ...
I have a couple of large compost bins on my allotment which I regularly
fill with compostable materials from home, but this only accounts for a few
percent.

For the most part, I go to the local riding stables where they bag up the
horse manure and leave it outside for people to take for free.

In the winter time, when the horses are inside the stables, the mix is
heavy with straw and bedding. But now in the warmer months with the
horses outside , it is mainly stuff gathered straight off the paddock
areas where the horses pass their days.

The thing is this. The bins are 4'x3'x3' and I just do not have the
energy or strength to turn them. So , in effect they are cold compost
heaps. I let the contents rot down over a 2 year period.

But is there a danger that the pathogens in the horse dung will not die
off (as they would if I were operating a hot heap) and that my family
could become seriously ill if I use this composted material on my
vegetable plot even if it is 2 years old?

Pathogens in Horse dung? Please advise what and any scientific papers that
back it up. I know it is a big carrier of Tetanus but not heard about
anything else of concern.
"No major human disease has ever been accurately attributed to the intimate
contact human beings have had with horses for thousands of years.
Veterinarians and vet students probably have the greatest exposure to true
risk from horse manure. The horse has a very inefficient gut: it's a one-way
throughput system. Horses are physiologically incapable of vomiting or
regurgitating. If something gets stuck on the way through, the only way to
get it out is by surgery or physical intervention. As a result, you will
often find vets armpit deep under a horse's tail. Nevertheless, there has
never been a documented case of veterinarians contracting illness as a
result of this rather extreme true exposure to horse manure."

We use well rotted 1 year old stuff and have never had any trouble.


No, I not no expert scientist or nothing nor read scientific papers. I
am just a gardener. But I see a few articles on the web that says if you
maintain a hot heap then it will kill pathogens.. If you run a cold heap
then these things are not killed off with the heat. Hence my concern.

wrote:
In article ,
Bob Hobden wrote:
Pathogens in Horse dung? Please advise what and any scientific papers that
back it up. I know it is a big carrier of Tetanus but not heard about
anything else of concern.

Try anthrax.

However, with both tetanus and anthrax, you are likely to have trouble
only if the dung comes from a stable where they shovel dead horses
out with the bedding. Not generally the case ....


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
Cl. tetani; Cl. Welchii; various E.coli and salmonella strains and
Cryptosporidium all are risks from the use of farmyard and stable
manures. Historically, the biggest risk to agricultural labourers and
gardeners has been tetanus and gas-gangrene infections of, often, very
trivial wounds. The extent to which the organic veg growing fad has been
responsible for the increase, over the last few decades is unestimated.
Best to keep your AT injections up to date and wash and boil everything
that you eat from your veg / salad patch

yrs
rjbl

In article ,
Ed ex@directory wrote:

No, I not no expert scientist or nothing nor read scientific papers. I
am just a gardener. But I see a few articles on the web that says if you
maintain a hot heap then it will kill pathogens.. If you run a cold heap
then these things are not killed off with the heat. Hence my concern.

A lot of such rubbish is written by Merkins, who manage to make
Little Englanders look intelligent. You need to be able to judge
which authors have Clue and which don't.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article ,
RJBL wrote:

Cl. tetani; Cl. Welchii; various E.coli and salmonella strains and
Cryptosporidium all are risks from the use of farmyard and stable
manures. Historically, the biggest risk to agricultural labourers and
gardeners has been tetanus and gas-gangrene infections of, often, very
trivial wounds. The extent to which the organic veg growing fad has been
responsible for the increase, over the last few decades is unestimated.
Best to keep your AT injections up to date and wash and boil everything
that you eat from your veg / salad patch

Oh, nuts! WHAT increase in tetanus and gas-gangrene in the UK?

The historical dangers were because a LOT of farm animals died from
tetanus, anthrax etc. and the spores were everywhere. Well, they
still are, but are not transmitted by that route any more because
of the efficiency with which infected animals are detected and
disposed of. Yes, keep your tetanus innoculation up to date, but
don't use two century old information as a guide to safe practices.

A lot of the others you mention are something that most people have
some immunity to, or even aren't pathogens at all (for example, you
NEED E. coli to stay healthy). There is also increasing evidence
that preventing children from being exposed to them increases the
risk of much more serious problems. Exercise your immune system
and stop fussing.

Yes, of course, some people are at special risk. Don't START
training your immune system in old age or when ill, and so on.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Ed" ex@directory wrote in message
...
On 15/07/09 16:12, brooklyn1 wrote:
"Ed" ex@directory wrote in message
o.uk...
I have a couple of large compost bins on my allotment which I regularly
fill with compostable materials from home, but this only accounts for a
few percent.

For the most part, I go to the local riding stables where they bag up
the horse manure and leave it outside for people to take for free.

In the winter time, when the horses are inside the stables, the mix is
heavy with straw and bedding. But now in the warmer months with the
horses outside , it is mainly stuff gathered straight off the paddock
areas where the horses pass their days.

The thing is this. The bins are 4'x3'x3' and I just do not have the
energy or strength to turn them. So , in effect they are cold compost
heaps. I let the contents rot down over a 2 year period.

But is there a danger that the pathogens in the horse dung will not die
off (as they would if I were operating a hot heap) and that my family
could become seriously ill if I use this composted material on my
vegetable plot even if it is 2 years old?


There is no concern with pathogens with manure from vegetarian beasts
except perhaps if you know the beast to be ill with a disease
transmittable to humans. In your case I'd be more concerned with viable
weed seeds.

Weeds aren't a great problem for me.. I got the time and I love weeding
most days. Most of my weeds anyway are in-blown from other plots so I
always expect them.

But thanks for the re-assurance on the pathogens though. I'd hate to grow
my own crops and then find I make my family ill.

Ed


Ed, your biggest concern should be whether or not the horse's paddock was
sprayed with a broadleaf herbicide. The herbicide will pass harmlessly
through the horse and wipe out you garden. Check with the source of your
manure, it would be heartbreaking to have that happen.
Cheers,
Steve

Nick wrote after
Bob Hobden wrote:

Pathogens in Horse dung? Please advise what and any scientific papers that
back it up. I know it is a big carrier of Tetanus but not heard about
anything else of concern.

Try anthrax.

However, with both tetanus and anthrax, you are likely to have trouble
only if the dung comes from a stable where they shovel dead horses
out with the bedding. Not generally the case ....

I agree there are possibly some other pathogens in Horse dung but in
practice they don't pose much of a risk to human health these days. Not
worth worrying about provided you use normal sensible measures like washing
hands etc.

--
Regards
Bob Hobden
just W. of London

Ed wrote:
On 15/07/09 16:24, Bob Hobden wrote:
"Ed" wrote ...
I have a couple of large compost bins on my allotment which I
regularly fill with compostable materials from home, but this only
accounts for a few percent.

For the most part, I go to the local riding stables where they bag up
the horse manure and leave it outside for people to take for free.

In the winter time, when the horses are inside the stables, the mix
is heavy with straw and bedding. But now in the warmer months with
the horses outside , it is mainly stuff gathered straight off the
paddock areas where the horses pass their days.

The thing is this. The bins are 4'x3'x3' and I just do not have the
energy or strength to turn them. So , in effect they are cold
compost heaps. I let the contents rot down over a 2 year period.

If the bins were more like 6'x6'x6' they would probably hold enough heat
in the bulk material to become hot. I only turn mine once to put the
edges into the middle.

But is there a danger that the pathogens in the horse dung will not
die off (as they would if I were operating a hot heap) and that my
family could become seriously ill if I use this composted material on
my vegetable plot even if it is 2 years old?

Pathogens in Horse dung? Please advise what and any scientific papers
that back it up. I know it is a big carrier of Tetanus but not heard
about anything else of concern.
"No major human disease has ever been accurately attributed to the
intimate contact human beings have had with horses for thousands of
years. Veterinarians and vet students probably have the greatest
exposure to true risk from horse manure. The horse has a very
inefficient gut: it's a one-way throughput system. Horses are
physiologically incapable of vomiting or regurgitating. If something
gets stuck on the way through, the only way to get it out is by
surgery or physical intervention. As a result, you will often find
vets armpit deep under a horse's tail. Nevertheless, there has never
been a documented case of veterinarians contracting illness as a
result of this rather extreme true exposure to horse manure."

We use well rotted 1 year old stuff and have never had any trouble.


No, I not no expert scientist or nothing nor read scientific papers. I
am just a gardener. But I see a few articles on the web that says if you
maintain a hot heap then it will kill pathogens.. If you run a cold heap
then these things are not killed off with the heat. Hence my concern.

A hot heap works a bit faster and it is only really hot for a few days.
Mainly it helps to kill off weed seeds. My heaps go hot when I put a few
cubic metres of grass cuttings on them in one go. I have had one up to
smouldering. If you can add enough of anything to the heap at once with
the right amount of water you will get it hot for a while. The horse
dung will act OK as an accelerant, but if you want something that will
encourage a hot heap then the proprietory mix Garotta (sp?) seems to
work as well as anything.

I wouldn't worry about pathogens from horse dung either. And if you have
access to plenty of straw and horse manure it is worth fermenting some
to make your own mushroom compost. I might worry about that persistent
residual pesticide that has been causing trouble in winter hay though.

Regards,
Martin Brown

In article ,
"Steve Peek" wrote:

"Ed" ex@directory wrote in message
...
On 15/07/09 16:12, brooklyn1 wrote:
"Ed" ex@directory wrote in message
o.uk...
I have a couple of large compost bins on my allotment which I regularly
fill with compostable materials from home, but this only accounts for a
few percent.

For the most part, I go to the local riding stables where they bag up
the horse manure and leave it outside for people to take for free.

In the winter time, when the horses are inside the stables, the mix is
heavy with straw and bedding. But now in the warmer months with the
horses outside , it is mainly stuff gathered straight off the paddock
areas where the horses pass their days.

The thing is this. The bins are 4'x3'x3' and I just do not have the
energy or strength to turn them. So , in effect they are cold compost
heaps. I let the contents rot down over a 2 year period.

But is there a danger that the pathogens in the horse dung will not die
off (as they would if I were operating a hot heap) and that my family
could become seriously ill if I use this composted material on my
vegetable plot even if it is 2 years old?


There is no concern with pathogens with manure from vegetarian beasts
except perhaps if you know the beast to be ill with a disease
transmittable to humans. In your case I'd be more concerned with viable
weed seeds.

Weeds aren't a great problem for me.. I got the time and I love weeding
most days. Most of my weeds anyway are in-blown from other plots so I
always expect them.

But thanks for the re-assurance on the pathogens though. I'd hate to grow
my own crops and then find I make my family ill.

Ed


Ed, your biggest concern should be whether or not the horse's paddock was
sprayed with a broadleaf herbicide. The herbicide will pass harmlessly
through the horse and wipe out you garden. Check with the source of your
manure, it would be heartbreaking to have that happen.
Cheers,
Steve

FarmI wrote last Oct. "I also spread horse poop as it comes (often
almost still steaming) straight onto garden beds and it results in a
huge worm population explosion."

I might mention that she is still with us, which argues favorably for
the use of fresh manure. Most will caution against getting fresh manure
on the edible parts of the plant (touching or splashed) for at least 3
months.

More often the advice is to work fresh manure into the ground 3 months
before planting.

Standard procedure is to compost (hot or cold) for 6 months before use,
or to incorporate it into the soil in the fall.
--

- Billy

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and
find out for themselves.
Will Rogers

http://countercurrents.org/roberts020709.htm
http://www.tomdispatch.com/p/zinn

wrote:
In article ,
RJBL wrote:


A lot of the others you mention are something that most people have
some immunity to, or even aren't pathogens at all (for example, you
NEED E. coli to stay healthy). There is also increasing evidence
that preventing children from being exposed to them increases the
risk of much more serious problems. Exercise your immune system
and stop fussing.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Depends which E. coli you are talking about. Many strains are highly
pathogenic; I wouldn't like 0157 in me, for example, immunosuppressed or
not. More info here if you don't mind being too bored:
http://textbookofbacteriology.net/e.coli.html

--
Jeff