I've been doing some reading up on Mycorrhiza. mainly because ive seen it
as aproduct offered at local nursery. Its mainly spoken about in realtion
to black pines. And some controvery about Mycorrhiza and fertilizer. im
interested in if it would be a good addition to all plants no just the
pines. eg. japanese maples, oaks, sweet gum etc. And what is you opinon
to add it yo juvenille plants?


socal

Lou

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I've been doing some reading up on Mycorrhiza. mainly because
ive seen it
as aproduct offered at local nursery. Its mainly spoken about
in realtion
to black pines. And some controvery about Mycorrhiza and
fertilizer. im
interested in if it would be a good addition to all plants no
just the
pines. eg. japanese maples, oaks, sweet gum etc. And what is
you opinon
to add it yo juvenille plants?

On Bonsai and Mycorrhiza:

1. There is NO one-kind-fits-all Mycorrhiza; Mycorrhiza are
extremely species specific.
2. If you need Mycorrhiza, they/it almost always will come.
With no effort on your part. I dunno why. Or how. (Maybe Nina
does.)
3. The so-called "function" of Mycorrhiza is to make hard-to-use
nutrients more accessible to the plant. For potted trees, we
supply all the nutrients they need, and in an easily useable
form, so there's no real need for Mycorrhiza (though Mycorrhiza
probably are there; Mycorrhiza tend to develop even on
bare-rooted plants).
4. Reportedly, Mycorrhiza tends to disappear when a plant is
heavily fertilized. Many pesticides (plant, animal, and fungal)
adversely affect Mycorrhiza.

So, save your money and don't worry about adding or developing
Mycorrhiza.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Our life is
frittered away by detail . . . . Simplify! Simplify. -- Henry
David Thoreau - Walden

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I've been doing some reading up on Mycorrhiza. mainly because ive seen it
as aproduct offered at local nursery. Its mainly spoken about in realtion
to black pines. And some controvery about Mycorrhiza and fertilizer. im
interested in if it would be a good addition to all plants no just the
pines. eg. japanese maples, oaks, sweet gum etc. And what is you opinon
to add it yo juvenille plants?

Oy! It's complicated.

a) Some trees (mostly conifers) are "ectomycorrhizal". Some (mostly
dicots) are endomycorrhizal. Some (ericaceae) have
ectendomycorrhizae. You can't just buy inoculum in the store; it has
to be the appropriate kind. I think most of those products are a
racket (IMHO).

b) Young trees often have different mycorrhizae than older trees.

c) Some of the fungi are very specialized and grow on only a few
species of trees; others grow on most.

d) some of these relationships are regional; you can inoculate a
plant with a certain mycorrhizal fungus, but if it isn't a good fit,
the tree will lose it to a local mycorrhizal fungus better adapted to
the area.

e) Some mycorrhizal relationships go bad in the presence of fertilizer.


For the most part, a well-fertilized, well-watered bonsai does not
need a mycorrhizal fungus. It makes sense to inoculate young trees
if you are transplanting them to barren, strip-mined land. But for
the most part, a tree that needs one will find it itself.

On the other hand, it will do absolutely no harm to inoculate a tree.
And, as we have discussed so often, anything that encourages a
healthy soil flora helps reduce stress on a tree.
--
Nina Shishkoff

Riverhead, NY

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2. If you need Mycorrhiza, they/it almost always will come.
With no effort on your part. I dunno why. Or how. (Maybe Nina
does.)

Pretty soon we'll be finishing each other's sentences, Jim.

Endomycorrhizae have large, thick-walled spores that blow in the
wind. They'll infect a potted bonsai. Ectomycorrhizae are formed by
"mushrooms" (boletes, truffles, morels, etc). Spores from the
fruiting bodies might well infect a potted tree, or tiny clumps of
mycelium in blown dirt might.
--
Nina Shishkoff

Riverhead, NY

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I wrote:

2. If you need Mycorrhiza, they/it almost always will come.
With no effort on your part. I dunno why. Or how. (Maybe
Nina
does.)

Then Nina wrote:
Pretty soon we'll be finishing each other's sentences, Jim.


And I add:

It's called "a setup," Nina. ;-)

Endomycorrhizae have large, thick-walled spores that blow in
the
wind. They'll infect a potted bonsai. Ectomycorrhizae are
formed by
"mushrooms" (boletes, truffles, morels, etc). Spores from the
fruiting bodies might well infect a potted tree, or tiny clumps
of
mycelium in blown dirt might.

And I KNEW you knew.

And I'd guess that the Ecto-type probably come in on what soil
clings to a collected tree's roots (even when bare rooted and
"all" soil is washed away) or in remnants of "old" soil in a
long-potted tree.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - "People,
when Columbus discovered this country, it was plum full of nuts
and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just
about all gone." -- Uncle Dave Macon, old-time musician

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Xref: news7 rec.arts.bonsai:57783

And I'd guess that the Ecto-type probably come in on what soil
clings to a collected tree's roots (even when bare rooted and
"all" soil is washed away) or in remnants of "old" soil in a
long-potted tree.


Mycorrhizal fungi, no matter what kind, have one thing in common:
part of their mycelium is WITHIN the tree root. You can wash the
roots completely of ALL soil, and the tree will still be mycorrhizal.
--
Nina Shishkoff

Riverhead, NY

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I've been doing some reading up on Mycorrhiza. mainly because ive seen it as
a product offered at local nursery.

I was skeptical about mycorrhiza in potted plants, so I contacted a forestry
person who researched references. it seems quite a bit of research has been
done. Mycorriza added when repotting is useful to all the conifers and possibly
some of the other forest type trees. It wouldn't hurt to add it routinely to
all your trees, but it is rather expensive for that. For the commercial nursery
trade, it was found that mycorrhiza is actually cost effective because it
reduces the amount of fertilizer needed. And of course its value in
reforestation, and hence growing in the ground, is well known. It is more
useful for juvenile trees, because adult trees gradually develop their own as
they find it in the soil. Many bonsai growers, when they repot an old pine,
save some mycorrhiza (you can easily spot it from the mycelium) like sourdough
for the next tree of the same or similar species to be repotted.

Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"The trouble with people is not that they don't know but that they know so much
that ain't so."
Josh Billings (Henry Wheeler Shaw), 1818-1885

Jim Lewis wrote:

3. The so-called "function" of Mycorrhiza is to make hard-to-use
nutrients more accessible to the plant. For potted trees, we
supply all the nutrients they need, and in an easily useable
form, so there's no real need for Mycorrhiza (though Mycorrhiza
probably are there; Mycorrhiza tend to develop even on
bare-rooted plants).

As I mentioned the last time this came up, your typical balanced
fertilizer isn't made to deal with the nutrient needs of a non-mycorrhizal
plant of a normally mycorrhizal species. With species that rely heavily
on mycorrhizae, nutrient needs vary drastically between mycorrhizal and
non-mycorrhizal plants--a balanced fertilizer will generally work with the
former, but the latter may need up to four times as much phosphorus as
nitrogen.
OTOH, I don't know if mycorrhizal inoculation is beneficial for
bonsai... I haven't heard of anyone testing this, and suspect it would
vary greatly with circumstances. But the presence of mycorrhizae is
clearly beneficial--the question is whether or not an inoculum is a
significant factor in their establishment under normal cultural practices.

Patrick Alexander

Nina Shishkoff wrote:
And I'd guess that the Ecto-type probably come in on what soil
clings to a collected tree's roots (even when bare rooted and
"all" soil is washed away) or in remnants of "old" soil in a
long-potted tree.


Mycorrhizal fungi, no matter what kind, have one thing in common:
part of their mycelium is WITHIN the tree root. You can wash the
roots completely of ALL soil, and the tree will still be mycorrhizal.

Do you know, though, if the bits within the root are capable of
regeneration? I wouldn't've thought they were, in the VAM fungi at least,
as the arbuscules aren't really anything more than exchange sites. And,
of course, if the mycorrhizae can't regenerate from their arbuscules, the
presence of the arbuscules within the root doesn't get us very far... then
again, fungal regeneration isn't something I know much about.

Patrick Alexander

Nina Shishkoff wrote:

Endomycorrhizae have large, thick-walled spores that blow in the
wind.

So far as I can tell, wind is not significant as a dispersal agent
of endomycorrhizae except in arid areas, where significant amounts of dry
soil may become airborne. See `Dispersal Agents of Vesicular-Arbuscular
Mycorrhizal Fungi in a Disturbed Arid Ecosystem', in Mycologia, v. 79, pp
721-730, from which I quote: `Animals appear to be the major vectors for
dispersal of VAM fungi in many mesic habitats (e.g., Marx, 1975; Maser et
al., 1978; Allen, 1987). However, since extensive wind erosion is common
in many arid regions, wind might be an equally important dispersal vector
(Trappe, 1981; MacMahon and Warner, 1984).' I also know a couple of people
who work on VAM fungi in prairie habitats, and they treat it as common
knowledge that wind isn't a significant dispersal agent in these habitats,
and that VAM fungi are very poorly dispersed. *shrug*

They'll infect a potted bonsai.

Maybe, maybe not.

Patrick Alexander

Speaking of Mycorrhiza . . .

In the current issue of Arizona Highways (which is one of my
favorite magazines, but is NOT a scientific journal!), an article
about the Kaibab squirrel, found only in the Ponderosa pine
forest on the North Rim of the Grand Canyon (the CLOSELY related
Albert Squirrel is found in other Arizona Pondersoa forests),
says that these squirrels . . .

"relish truffles. . . .

"Together, in fact, the ponderosa pines, the truffles and the
squirrels enjoy a symbiotic relationship that ensures their
mutual survival.

"According to Joseph Hall in his book _Linea: Portrait of a
Kaibab Squirrel_, truffles attach themselves to ponderosa pine
rootlets with tiny, threadlike extensions. The fungi help
transfer nutrients and water from the soil to the tree, while
absorbing carbohydrates and amino acids from the tree's root
tissues. But beneath the forest floor, the fungi have no way to
disperse their spores. When a squirrel digs up and nibbles a
truffle, the fruiting body of the fungi, the spores pass through
the animal's digestive system to be scattered abouot the forest."

So here we have one way in which Mycorrhiza spores may get
transferred from point A to point B in nature (and in pots?
Assuming they're needed in pots ;-).

Anyway, all you Ponderosa Pine Bonsai fans might take note. Find
a Kaibab squirrel, then let him poop in your pot.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Our life is
frittered away by detail . . . . Simplify! Simplify. -- Henry
David Thoreau - Walden

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In a message dated 1/26/2003 5:55:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
writes:

Anyway, all you Ponderosa Pine Bonsai fans might take note. Find
a Kaibab squirrel, then let him poop in your pot.

This has got to be one of the great lines in Bonsai literature.
Billy on the Florida Space Coast

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From Jim Lewis:

Anyway, all you Ponderosa Pine Bonsai fans might take note. Find
a Kaibab squirrel, then let him poop in your pot.

Next time we have a squirrel thread this has got to appear as a
reminder of a squirrel value. (NOT!)

Lynn

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(Jim Lewis) wrote in message news:001501c2c58d$5d65abc0$a5122cc7@pavilion...
Speaking of Mycorrhiza . . .

In the current issue of Arizona Highways (which is one of my
favorite magazines, but is NOT a scientific journal!), an article
about the Kaibab squirrel, found only in the Ponderosa pine
forest on the North Rim of the Grand Canyon (the CLOSELY related
Albert Squirrel is found in other Arizona Pondersoa forests),
says that these squirrels . . .

"relish truffles. . . .

"Together, in fact, the ponderosa pines, the truffles and the
squirrels enjoy a symbiotic relationship that ensures their
mutual survival.

"According to Joseph Hall in his book _Linea: Portrait of a
Kaibab Squirrel_, truffles attach themselves to ponderosa pine
rootlets with tiny, threadlike extensions. The fungi help
transfer nutrients and water from the soil to the tree, while
absorbing carbohydrates and amino acids from the tree's root
tissues. But beneath the forest floor, the fungi have no way to
disperse their spores. When a squirrel digs up and nibbles a
truffle, the fruiting body of the fungi, the spores pass through
the animal's digestive system to be scattered abouot the forest."

So here we have one way in which Mycorrhiza spores may get
transferred from point A to point B in nature (and in pots?
Assuming they're needed in pots ;-).

Anyway, all you Ponderosa Pine Bonsai fans might take note. Find
a Kaibab squirrel, then let him poop in your pot.

While you are correct that squirrel fecal pellets contain abundant
mycorrhizal fungi spores, it is unlikely some would get into bonsai
pots naturally. Squirrels don't normally access bonsai pots. And
bonsai in nature almost never come on contact with many
ectomycorrhizal fungi.

The same is true of nurseries and greenhouses, btw.

That's one reason why Dr. James Trappe did research on introducing
mycorrhizal fungi into tree nurseries here in Oregon.

Chris Maser has estimated a single squirrel fecal pellet may contain
upwards of 100,000 spores. It may take 1,000 spores (of the same
species) to establish the mycorrhizae for a new tree. It is also true
that spores tend to stay in the digestive tracks of squirrels for up
to a month after ingestion. So although 100,000 spores may sound like
a lot, they are often dispersed with lots of other mycorrhizal
species.

One of the mycorrhizal fungi sought out by squirrels are Rhizopogons.
These fungi are closely related to Suillus mushrooms, but grow for the
most part underground. Dr. Trappe has noted that a single
average-sized Rhizopogon (about 1 inch in diameter) is capable of
inoculating as many as 1 million tree seedlings.

But in nature, naturally occuring bonsai typically don't occur where
Rhizopogons are abundant. And one of the reasons bonsai growers
probably _don't_ want to have mycorrhizae such as Rhizopogons is that
the inoculated trees tend to grow _very_ rapidly: several feet per
year from seed is not unheard of.

Daniel B. Wheeler
www.oregonwhitetruffles.com

(Jim Lewis) wrote in message
news:001501c2c58d$5d65abc0$a5122cc7@pavilion...
Speaking of Mycorrhiza . . .

In the current issue of Arizona Highways (which is one of my
favorite magazines, but is NOT a scientific journal!), an
article
about the Kaibab squirrel, found only in the Ponderosa pine
forest on the North Rim of the Grand Canyon (the CLOSELY
related
Albert Squirrel is found in other Arizona Pondersoa forests),
says that these squirrels . . .

"relish truffles. . . .

snip

Anyway, all you Ponderosa Pine Bonsai fans might take note.
Find
a Kaibab squirrel, then let him poop in your pot.

While you are correct that squirrel fecal pellets contain
abundant
mycorrhizal fungi spores, it is unlikely some would get into
bonsai
pots naturally. Squirrels don't normally access bonsai pots.
And
bonsai in nature almost never come on contact with many
ectomycorrhizal fungi.


Well, I _meant_ that last line merely as a grin producer, BUT
y'all in Oregon don't have the Eastern U.S.'s common gray
squirrel, Sciurus caroliniensis, which spends much more time in
my bonsai pots than I care for (though I have no idea whether the
little &^%$# is a truffle lover or not).

snip

But in nature, naturally occuring bonsai typically don't occur
where
Rhizopogons are abundant. And one of the reasons bonsai growers
probably _don't_ want to have mycorrhizae such as Rhizopogons
is that
the inoculated trees tend to grow _very_ rapidly: several feet
per
year from seed is not unheard of.

Hmmm. Maybe there IS a shortcut to fatter trunks by growing in
the ground. ;-)

Thanks for the info on the fungi, too. It was interesting.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - "People,
when Columbus discovered this country, it was plum full of nuts
and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just
about all gone." -- Uncle Dave Macon, old-time musician

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