Or option 4)

Don't use ANY organic component. I dropped out the organic component
this year for exactly the reasons you're stating here.

Wmcorcor
NEPA Zone 4-5

== -----Original Message-----
== From: Internet Bonsai Club ] On
Behalf
== Of John Dhom
== Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 3:25 PM
== To:
== Subject: [IBC] Bonsai mix - source for organic component(s)
==
== Hey all,
==
== I'm spending inordinate amounts of time sieving my organic material
and
== could use some encouraging words regarding a) better sources, b)
better
== materials, c) better techniques, d) better tools. Currently I'm
using
== pine
== bark, by the bag from lowes/home despot. Typically I double screen
into
== 2 or
== 3 sizes. Too much wood parts to pull out and too little yield for
the
== effort
== expended. blah, blah, blah.

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

I like to use Miracle Grow potting mix, sand, perlite, peat moss, and
compost. Generally in equal proportions for junipers I add more sand and for pines
even more sand. When I repot. I recycle my soil. adding usually repot every 2
to 3 years. I grow maples in cedar boxes I water all trees everyday. This
proportions works well with my watering habits and seasonal conditions where I
live. I find it easier to adjust my soil to coincide with my watering habits.
I am not losing trees. so I am happy with my set up for now.
I grow Japanese Maples, Pines, Elms, Hornbeam, Beech, Junipers and Azaleas.
The bottom line is that you should use mixtures that suits your needs.
Sometimes it's by trial and error. Sometimes you find information that is
adaptable to your situation. there is no right way. there are only wrong ways if you
lose trees

SteveW

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Hey all,

I'm spending inordinate amounts of time sieving my organic
material and
could use some encouraging words regarding a) better sources,
b) better
materials, c) better techniques, d) better tools. Currently I'm
using pine
bark, by the bag from lowes/home despot. Typically I double
screen into 2 or
3 sizes. Too much wood parts to pull out and too little yield
for the effort
expended. blah, blah, blah.

You don't indicate how much soil you need to make each year, but
I'll tell you what _I_ have started to do -- FWIW.

I buy my organic component (pine bark NUGGETS) from Lowes or Home
Depot in spring of year 1. I empty the two bags into two large
growing boxes that sit out exposed to the Florida elements. In
the winter of year 1, I bury all of my smallest trees (40 or 50
trees under 6 inches until this disastrous spring) in the boxes
of bark nuggets and just leave them there for the winter,
exposed to rain, freeze-thaw, etc. (If you don't need it for
winter protection, just leave it out in the elements for a year.)

In the EARLY spring of year 2 after I've rescued and repotted all
of the tiny trees, I start grinding up the now-pretty-rotten pine
bark nuggets -- I have a hand-cranked grinder originally made to
grind up stuff for compost that breaks the nuggets down to a
smaller (and sometimes even useful) size. The larger parts of
this smaller stuff then goes into an old and nearly worn out food
processor and is ground to flake size and then screened (lots of
powder) and added to the bonsai soil -- mostly turface.

I make 3-4 paint buckets of soil every year. This process takes
a year and 2 days. ;-) That's not too much time, eh?

Fresh pine bark nuggets are simply too hard to break up -- and as
you say the shredded stuff is 40% wood chips which you do NOT
want in your soil.

To someone else who responded: That Miracle Grow soil is too
fine for even my tiny trees! And too costly for as much soil as
I make.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Only where
people have learned to appreciate and cherish the landscape and
its living cover will they treat it with the care and respect it
should have - Paul Bigelow Sears.

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Tom Kehoe wrote:

John,

Down here in the sub-tropical zone of Florida, one common formula for bonsai
soil is one part sharp sand, one part turface, and one part "organic" --
generally a fine pine chip that is sieved from a product called "soil
conditioner." The product is nothing more than well-decayed pine mulch. I
sieve mine by hand using standard bonsai soil sieves.

Tom Kehoe



What I've started to do this year was inspired by Anita. I have a compost pile
where my grass clippings, kitchen scraps, dead leaves, misc. pieces of rotten
wood, etc. go. The sides of the pile (3 bins) I made out of discarded pallets.
She uses her compost as the organic component in her soil. I was skeptical at
first, thinking that it would turn to mud, but found that compost actually has good
drainage--it's fluffy. She doesn't sift hers, but I generally sift mine and find
it's a good, cheap way to get organic material.

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

"less than a pickup truck load" was intended to convey the max
quantity/year... all sizes organic combined... I know, it was a long post

Can you provide make/model of hand grinder for reference? Or maybe a pointer
to something similar that could be had new or used...

The mini-nuggets look to be better quality, by far, with almost no wood. I
could see using them and a chipper/grinder so I could net a high usable
yield out of my sieving... current yield with pine bark is low

Best,
/jhd

"Jim Lewis" wrote in message
news:004d01c45ee9$0127e840$38112cc7@pavilion...
Hey all,

I'm spending inordinate amounts of time sieving my organic
material and
could use some encouraging words regarding a) better sources,
b) better
materials, c) better techniques, d) better tools. Currently I'm
using pine
bark, by the bag from lowes/home despot. Typically I double
screen into 2 or
3 sizes. Too much wood parts to pull out and too little yield
for the effort
expended. blah, blah, blah.

You don't indicate how much soil you need to make each year, but
I'll tell you what _I_ have started to do -- FWIW.

I buy my organic component (pine bark NUGGETS) from Lowes or Home
Depot in spring of year 1. I empty the two bags into two large
growing boxes that sit out exposed to the Florida elements. In
the winter of year 1, I bury all of my smallest trees (40 or 50
trees under 6 inches until this disastrous spring) in the boxes
of bark nuggets and just leave them there for the winter,
exposed to rain, freeze-thaw, etc. (If you don't need it for
winter protection, just leave it out in the elements for a year.)

In the EARLY spring of year 2 after I've rescued and repotted all
of the tiny trees, I start grinding up the now-pretty-rotten pine
bark nuggets -- I have a hand-cranked grinder originally made to
grind up stuff for compost that breaks the nuggets down to a
smaller (and sometimes even useful) size. The larger parts of
this smaller stuff then goes into an old and nearly worn out food
processor and is ground to flake size and then screened (lots of
powder) and added to the bonsai soil -- mostly turface.

I make 3-4 paint buckets of soil every year. This process takes
a year and 2 days. ;-) That's not too much time, eh?

Fresh pine bark nuggets are simply too hard to break up -- and as
you say the shredded stuff is 40% wood chips which you do NOT
want in your soil.

To someone else who responded: That Miracle Grow soil is too
fine for even my tiny trees! And too costly for as much soil as
I make.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Only where
people have learned to appreciate and cherish the landscape and
its living cover will they treat it with the care and respect it
should have - Paul Bigelow Sears.


************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++

************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Hey Craig,

That's interesting. I'd have to see the compost... but it sounds like it
could fit the bill as well. Having only seen compost at lowes/home depot I'd
not considered it for my mixes.

I make light mixes using primarily bark + inorganic (perlite pre-bonsai,
turface/grit finished bonsai)... portions based on tree in hand (or tree in
pot :P). To this I add a moisture retention component... usually chopped up
long fiber sphagnum.

So I, more or less, subscribe to components by Brent... and portions by Naka


Best,
/jhd


"Craig Cowing" wrote in message
...

What I've started to do this year was inspired by Anita. I have a compost
pile
where my grass clippings, kitchen scraps, dead leaves, misc. pieces of
rotten
wood, etc. go. The sides of the pile (3 bins) I made out of discarded
pallets.
She uses her compost as the organic component in her soil. I was
skeptical at
first, thinking that it would turn to mud, but found that compost actually
has good
drainage--it's fluffy. She doesn't sift hers, but I generally sift mine
and find
it's a good, cheap way to get organic material.

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37


************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++

************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Heya Bill,

Well... it'd certainly be easy as I have good sources for the inorganic
components

Does this have a significant impact on water/nutrient retention? Can you
provide an example recipe? What you use for moisture retention and how you
adjusted it's portion when you dropped the organic component?

Best,
/jhd

"Corcoran. Bil" wrote in message
news:672C834D0A1E974CB1B26D66252A6B41076289@mail01 .kings.edu...
Or option 4)

Don't use ANY organic component. I dropped out the organic component
this year for exactly the reasons you're stating here.

Wmcorcor
NEPA Zone 4-5

== -----Original Message-----
== From: Internet Bonsai Club ] On
Behalf
== Of John Dhom
== Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 3:25 PM
== To:
== Subject: [IBC] Bonsai mix - source for organic component(s)
==
== Hey all,
==
== I'm spending inordinate amounts of time sieving my organic material
and
== could use some encouraging words regarding a) better sources, b)
better
== materials, c) better techniques, d) better tools. Currently I'm
using
== pine
== bark, by the bag from lowes/home despot. Typically I double screen
into
== 2 or
== 3 sizes. Too much wood parts to pull out and too little yield for
the
== effort
== expended. blah, blah, blah.


************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++

************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Hey Steve,

After an initial round of discussion and experimentation, a few years ago, I
became a firm believer in light mixes and I sieve all my components. I use
the common round sieve w/3 screens... not sure what the smallest size is...
~1/8"-1/16" I guess.

I'm with you on adjusting the mix to my/the tree's purposes. I keep a number
of 25gal containers with sized organic and inorganic components. I use
Naka's portions as a baseline (less mulch tho) and adjust based on
discussion/experience.

Central Tennessee, USDA zone 6a-6b, Sunset zone 33
Best,
/jhd

"Steven Wachs" wrote in message
...
I like to use Miracle Grow potting mix, sand, perlite, peat moss, and
compost. Generally in equal proportions for junipers I add more sand and
for pines
even more sand. When I repot. I recycle my soil. adding usually repot
every 2
to 3 years. I grow maples in cedar boxes I water all trees everyday. This
proportions works well with my watering habits and seasonal conditions
where I
live. I find it easier to adjust my soil to coincide with my watering
habits.
I am not losing trees. so I am happy with my set up for now.
I grow Japanese Maples, Pines, Elms, Hornbeam, Beech, Junipers and
Azaleas.
The bottom line is that you should use mixtures that suits your needs.
Sometimes it's by trial and error. Sometimes you find information that is
adaptable to your situation. there is no right way. there are only wrong
ways if you
lose trees

SteveW


************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++

************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

John:

I find it does well for water retention. Since I have an automatic
irrigation system I'd rather use a fast draining soil to minimize the
risk of over-watering. I try to keep Biogold chunks in each pot as a
food safety net and I tend to hit them every other week in the growing
season with Dynagrow or fish emulsion.

I was using 1/3 Turface MVP, 1/3 Grant-Grit (decomposed granite/chicken
grit) and 1/3 composted pine bark mulch. This was based on several
recipes I had read. After talking with Jerry Stowell about his concerns
with the alkaline in the chicken grit and after my struggle to find a
reasonable organic component year after year I started checking out more
soils. I spoke with Chase Rosade and with Jim Doyle from Nature's Way
and after checking out their soil mixes I decided to drop the organic
component completely.

I now use lava rock and Turface MVP in pretty much equal parts. It
holds moisture, drains well and does not break down and clog the soil at
all from what I have seen so far. It is still an experimental soil but
I can say I'm using it in almost all of my plants, it's affordable and
easy to sift.

My concerns for this soil mix:

1) All feeding is controlled manually (Probably a good thing)
2) Ph of lava rock (I heard some of them are high depending on the
source)
3) Hardness of the mix (Doesn't allow fine root to penetrate like
Akadama)

If the price was right I'd try Akadama instead of Turface or maybe
instead of both but it's too expensive and it does break down more
quickly than I can afford to replace it.

wmcorcor

== -----Original Message-----
== From: Internet Bonsai Club ] On
Behalf
== Of John Dhom
== Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 1:55 PM
== To:
== Subject: [IBC] Bonsai mix - source for organic component(s)
==
== Heya Bill,
==
== Well... it'd certainly be easy as I have good sources for the
inorganic
== components
==
== Does this have a significant impact on water/nutrient retention? Can
you
== provide an example recipe? What you use for moisture retention and
how
== you
== adjusted it's portion when you dropped the organic component?
==
== Best,
== /jhd

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

I am not sure what size screen use for the compost. I use window screen
framed in a box to hold soil. I use this for the compost. I mill the peat moss
through the screen also. The perlite is largest size component. I have
purchased plants that had truffle or something gritty, but I do not find it
appealing. I prefer soil moss

SteveW


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Hey Craig,

That's interesting. I'd have to see the compost... but it
sounds like it
could fit the bill as well. Having only seen compost at
lowes/home depot I'd
not considered it for my mixes.

The compost at Lowes/Home Depot is little more than black talcum
powder. DO NOT USE IT WITH BONSAI (though it would be a good
muck component for root-over-rock). Make your own compost.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Only where
people have learned to appreciate and cherish the landscape and
its living cover will they treat it with the care and respect it
should have - Paul Bigelow Sears.

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Can you provide make/model of hand grinder for reference? Or
maybe a pointer
to something similar that could be had new or used...

No. This is almost an antique. Check out websites that deal
with making compost -- www.rotweb.com used to be one.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Bonsaiests
are like genealogists: We know our roots!

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

oops sorry folks truffles was supposed to be turface. I guess spell check
never heard of turface

SteveW


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Hey Bill,

Thx info! I read, I comprehend, I like

Turface MVP is a little on the small side, Turface pro is even a bit
smaller. Is the lava-rock/grat-grit a bit bigger?

Best,
/jhd

Central Tennessee, USDA zone 6a-6b, Sunset zone 33

"Corcoran. Bil" wrote in message
news:672C834D0A1E974CB1B26D66252A6B41076307@mail01 .kings.edu...
John:

I find it does well for water retention. Since I have an automatic
irrigation system I'd rather use a fast draining soil to minimize the
risk of over-watering. I try to keep Biogold chunks in each pot as a
food safety net and I tend to hit them every other week in the growing
season with Dynagrow or fish emulsion.

I was using 1/3 Turface MVP, 1/3 Grant-Grit (decomposed granite/chicken
grit) and 1/3 composted pine bark mulch. This was based on several
recipes I had read. After talking with Jerry Stowell about his concerns
with the alkaline in the chicken grit and after my struggle to find a
reasonable organic component year after year I started checking out more
soils. I spoke with Chase Rosade and with Jim Doyle from Nature's Way
and after checking out their soil mixes I decided to drop the organic
component completely.

I now use lava rock and Turface MVP in pretty much equal parts. It
holds moisture, drains well and does not break down and clog the soil at
all from what I have seen so far. It is still an experimental soil but
I can say I'm using it in almost all of my plants, it's affordable and
easy to sift.

My concerns for this soil mix:

1) All feeding is controlled manually (Probably a good thing)
2) Ph of lava rock (I heard some of them are high depending on the
source)
3) Hardness of the mix (Doesn't allow fine root to penetrate like
Akadama)

If the price was right I'd try Akadama instead of Turface or maybe
instead of both but it's too expensive and it does break down more
quickly than I can afford to replace it.

wmcorcor

== -----Original Message-----
== From: Internet Bonsai Club ] On
Behalf
== Of John Dhom
== Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 1:55 PM
== To:
== Subject: [IBC] Bonsai mix - source for organic component(s)
==
== Heya Bill,
==
== Well... it'd certainly be easy as I have good sources for the
inorganic
== components
==
== Does this have a significant impact on water/nutrient retention? Can
you
== provide an example recipe? What you use for moisture retention and
how
== you
== adjusted it's portion when you dropped the organic component?
==
== Best,
== /jhd


************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++

************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Thx info. Will reconnoiter and conquer.

Best,
/jhd

Central Tennessee, USDA zone 6a-6b, Sunset zone 33

"Jim Lewis" wrote in message
news:011701c45f9d$47663000$c7102cc7@pavilion...

Can you provide make/model of hand grinder for reference? Or
maybe a pointer
to something similar that could be had new or used...

No. This is almost an antique. Check out websites that deal
with making compost -- www.rotweb.com used to be one.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Bonsaiests
are like genealogists: We know our roots!


************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++

************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++