----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Cowing"
big snip
What it comes down to is this--do we want to have bonsai remain a
relatively
elitist art, or include more people? Take your pick and pay your money.

Craig Cowing
-----------------------

Wha...?

Craig, every art, every sport, every hobby has general a general level of
participation and an elite (not elitist) level of participation. Your
question is a non sequitur.

Further, the idea that jargon, in general or in specific with bonsai, is
indicative of an elitist mindset among those who use it is equally vacuous.
It often appropriate and usually handy - else it would not be perpetuated.

Your examples of simple/inexpensive and brand-driven/expensive materials for
the bonsai endeavor are indicative of nothing more than individual choice,
knowledge and local availability. There is nothing good nor bad about
either choice and, again, neither is indicative of either elitist or
populist mindsets among users.

Surely there are elitists in any endeavor, but you may know them by their
actions, not by their buying habits or jargon use. The too-wide and poorly
defined brush you are painting with here is insulting and just plain
misleading.

Mortgage planners, doctors, architects, stock traders..., virtually every
endeavor has its own jargon that is "Greek" to the uninitiated. If "we"
want to vilify jargon, lets vilify all of it. But why, exactly? And how
might someone differentiate such an argument in our endeavor from plain ol'
racism? Is it jargon that is the trouble or is it Japanese language that is
the trouble? Neither is easier to understand when you're new to the game,
so what's the difference? Doctors and stock traders use jargon so that they
may more effectively and contextually communicate, not so that they may
exclude others from the conversation. It is no different with bonsai.
Statements that jargon in bonsai is meant to be exclusionary causes me to
wonder about those making such silly arguments.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.bonsai365.com/
zone 8, Texas

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************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Andy Rutledge wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Cowing"
big snip
What it comes down to is this--do we want to have bonsai remain a
relatively
elitist art, or include more people? Take your pick and pay your money.

Craig Cowing
-----------------------

Wha...?

snip

the idea that jargon, in general or in specific with bonsai, is
indicative of an elitist mindset among those who use it is equally vacuous.
It often appropriate and usually handy - else it would not be perpetuated.

snip

Surely there are elitists in any endeavor, but you may know them by their
actions, not by their buying habits or jargon use. The too-wide and poorly
defined brush you are painting with here is insulting and just plain misleading.

Insulting? Who's insulted? You?

Mortgage planners, doctors, architects, stock traders..., virtually every
endeavor has its own jargon that is "Greek" to the uninitiated. If "we"
want to vilify jargon, lets vilify all of it. But why, exactly? And how
might someone differentiate such an argument in our endeavor from plain ol'
racism?

It isn't racist to say that a person does not need to know a number of Japanese
terms to do bonsai. It's not a nativist impulse that makes me lean towards plain,
clean English or whatever language a person speaks. It's simply a matter of
education and communication.

Is it jargon that is the trouble or is it Japanese language that is
the trouble? Neither is easier to understand when you're new to the game,
so what's the difference?

Jargon is the problem, not language. Language in terms of difficulty is not the
problem.

Doctors and stock traders use jargon so that they
may more effectively and contextually communicate, not so that they may
exclude others from the conversation.

No, but we're not talking about a profession here for most of us, and bonsai
certainly isn't life and death. The comparison here is not valid. Doctors and
stock traders must have their own jargon to communicate effectively among
themselves. When a surgeon is in the middle of a delicate operation he or she must
use whatever shorthand they use in order to work efficiently and successfully.
But, when a doctor is explaining to a family why their loved one's cancer is
inoperable or why the surgery was not successful, they are not going to use fancy
words without clear explanation of what they mean. This is what I'm getting at.
Bonsai is not life and death. It's art.

It is no different with bonsai.
Statements that jargon in bonsai is meant to be exclusionary causes me to
wonder about those making such silly arguments.

Again, it isn't the intent but the effect. I use terms such a "nebari" with those
who I know understand them. Not with people who don't.


Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.bonsai365.com/
zone 8, Texas

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Dale Cochoy++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

No need to get all hot and bothered! No need to be using provocative words
like elitist or racist, either. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Jargon is inevitable, but those who use it should be prepared, and not too
surprised, to explain the term(s). Like any other part of language, jargon can be
useful as well as misused or abused.
Alan Walker, Lake Charles, LA, USA
http://LCBSBonsai.org http://bonsai-bci.com
================================
Craig Cowing and Andy Rutledge wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Cowing"
big snip
What it comes down to is this--do we want to have bonsai remain a
relatively elitist art, or include more people? Take your pick and pay your money.
Craig Cowing
-----------------------
Wha...?
SNIP
the idea that jargon, in general or in specific with bonsai, is indicative of an
elitist mindset among those who use it is equally vacuous. It often appropriate and
usually handy - else it would not be perpetuated.
SNIP
====
Surely there are elitists in any endeavor, but you may know them by their
actions, not by their buying habits or jargon use. The too-wide and poorly
defined brush you are painting with here is insulting and just plain misleading.
Insulting? Who's insulted? You?
===
Mortgage planners, doctors, architects, stock traders..., virtually every
endeavor has its own jargon that is "Greek" to the uninitiated. If "we"
want to vilify jargon, lets vilify all of it. But why, exactly? And how might someone
differentiate such an argument in our endeavor from plain ol' racism?
=====
It isn't racist to say that a person does not need to know a number of Japanese terms
to do bonsai. It's not a nativist impulse that makes me lean towards plain, clean
English or whatever language a person speaks. It's simply a matter of education and
communication.
=====
Is it jargon that is the trouble or is it Japanese language that is the trouble?
Neither is easier to understand when you're new to the game, so what's the difference?
======
Jargon is the problem, not language. Language in terms of difficulty is not the
problem.
=====
Doctors and stock traders use jargon so that they may more effectively and
contextually communicate, not so that they may exclude others from the conversation.
=====
No, but we're not talking about a profession here for most of us, and bonsai
certainly isn't life and death. The comparison here is not valid. Doctors and
stock traders must have their own jargon to communicate effectively among
themselves. When a surgeon is in the middle of a delicate operation he or she must use
whatever shorthand they use in order to work efficiently and successfully. But, when a
doctor is explaining to a family why their loved one's cancer is inoperable or why the
surgery was not successful, they are not going to use fancy words without clear
explanation of what they mean. This is what I'm getting at. Bonsai is not life and
death. It's art.
====
It is no different with bonsai. Statements that jargon in bonsai is meant to be
exclusionary causes me to wonder about those making such silly arguments.
Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.bonsai365.com/
zone 8, Texas
====
Again, it isn't the intent but the effect. I use terms such a "nebari" with those
who I know understand them. Not with people who don't.
Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Dale Cochoy++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++