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Old 22-02-2003, 09:15 PM
Neal Ross
 
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Default [IBC] Priorities in bonsai design
I think it depends upon how well your trunk is developed to begin with. If
you are happy with your trunk size I would go for it myself. But if you
still have your trunk to develop or if you plan on doing a trunk chop I
would still give it the larger sized pot to allow for free growth of a new
leader. Then once I had developed my new leader I would start selecting
which branches I intended to keep for the final design. After I got to about
2/3 completion of that part, then I would put it into a shallower pot. But
that is just me and I am only going by what I have read and heard others
talking about. I am still in the trunk development stage on 95% of my trees.

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Old 22-02-2003, 10:03 PM
John - NJ
 
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Default [IBC] Priorities in bonsai design
Neal:

When you say larger size pot do you mean a larger Bonsai pot or larger
clay garden pot? Does larger mean width and length or depth? Also,
how much larger to promote trunk growth?

Thanks, John

On Sat, 22 Feb 2003 11:44:52 -0600, Neal Ross wrote:

I think it depends upon how well your trunk is developed to begin with. If
you are happy with your trunk size I would go for it myself. But if you
still have your trunk to develop or if you plan on doing a trunk chop I
would still give it the larger sized pot to allow for free growth of a new
leader. Then once I had developed my new leader I would start selecting
which branches I intended to keep for the final design. After I got to about
2/3 completion of that part, then I would put it into a shallower pot. But
that is just me and I am only going by what I have read and heard others
talking about. I am still in the trunk development stage on 95% of my trees.

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Old 22-02-2003, 10:27 PM
Jim Lewis
 
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Default [IBC] Priorities in bonsai design
On Sat, 22 Feb 2003 11:44:52 -0600, Neal Ross
wrote:

I think it depends upon how well your trunk is developed to
begin with. If
you are happy with your trunk size I would go for it myself.
But if you
still have your trunk to develop or if you plan on doing a
trunk chop I
would still give it the larger sized pot to allow for free
growth of a new
leader. Then once I had developed my new leader I would start
selecting
which branches I intended to keep for the final design. After
I got to about
2/3 completion of that part, then I would put it into a
shallower pot. But
that is just me and I am only going by what I have read and
heard others
talking about. I am still in the trunk development stage on
95% of my trees.


Neal:

When you say larger size pot do you mean a larger Bonsai pot or
larger
clay garden pot? Does larger mean width and length or depth?
Also,
how much larger to promote trunk growth?

Thanks, John


I don't think anyone can answer those questions for you.
However, generally, you don't put a tree in a "bonsai pot" until
you are ready to call it a bonsai and display it -- or at least
do the "finishing" touches on it.

As for priorities in bonsai design, the trunk is always the first
priority. Always. (Or, as "always" as things can be in bonsai,
anyway.) Until you have a trunk with a base that holds it up --
including a well-developed nebari (surface root system) -- and a
decent taper from bottom to top, there is absolutely no way you
can think of doing any work on the branches.

And it is YOUR decisions as to what you want the trunk to look
like, slim and juvenile (or feminine) or heavy (and masculine).
THAT in turn probably depends on the species and then the style
you want to develop. In any event (except for literati) you want
a tree that is wide at the bottom and narrow at the top and a
generally even taper bottom to top. None of this evenly fat
lower half then sudden constriction to a skinny top that you see
on so many hastily chopped trees. (See
www.evergreengardenworks.com for excellent articles on proper
trunk development methods.)

As you do this, you generally let branches grow helter-skelter,
since the branches you have now may not be the branches you want
when you start to design the top. The branches grow at this
point only as tools to help you grow the trunk you want --
branches that are longer and unusually thick at the bottom, to
promote girth, and fewer and shorter and thinner at the top
(which is kinda basackwards for the finished tree which generally
will have a greater number of upper branches). This phase can
take one to 10 years, depending (on all the above and your
patience).

Frequently, when you finally have a trunk you like, you will then
remove ALL (or most) of the branches you've been using to help
develop the trunk, letting the tree sprout new ones (while it
heals the scars from the branch removal), keeping only those new
branches that you need for YOUR vision of the finished bonsai.
Here is where you choose the lower branch to the right or left,
the second branch off to the other side, the third branch to the
back, and then upper branches in proportion (but not necessarily
in the same rigid order as the first three).

These are the branches you pinch, prune, wire and shape to
whatever vision you have (hopefully) had for the tree. This
phase should take you 5 or more years to "finality" (whatever
that is in bonsai). Less time for a tiny tree, much more time
for a big tree.

Get almost any copy of Bonsai Today or International Bonsai and
you will see phased photos of trees as they develop over the
course of several years.

This has been a VERY cursory description, and many people handle
their trees in slightly different ways, but I think everyone will
agree that without a good trunk a bonsai isn't much of a bonsai.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Who has damn
few bonsai with good trunks.

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Old 22-02-2003, 11:15 PM
John - NJ
 
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Default [IBC] Priorities in bonsai design
On Sat, 22 Feb 2003 15:45:20 EST, "Billy M. Rhodes"
wrote:

Larger means, large enough to make the plant think it is in the ground.
That means as LARGE as you can handle.

Just to clarify what LARGE means so I know how to trick the tree into
thinking it's in the ground.

A LARGE pot is:

A) wide and shallow
B) narrow and deep
C) wide and deep.

I think from Jim's detailed reply I can presume that we're talking
about a clay pot. Can I also presume that Bonsai soil is used when
growing out the trunk in these LARGE clay pots?

Thanks, John

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Old 22-02-2003, 11:39 PM
Andy Rutledge
 
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Default [IBC] Priorities in bonsai design
----- Original Message -----
From: "ss"
Hi Everybody

As a general rule, should one transplant new material into a shallow pot
first and then develop and refine branches and foliage, or first achieve
the
desired branch and foliage structure and then transplant into a bonsai
pot?
snip
-----------------

Every species is different. Every tree, even within a species, is
different. There are exceptions to every guideline you can get on this
matter.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

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Old 23-02-2003, 12:15 AM
John - NJ
 
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Default [IBC] Priorities in bonsai design
This is very discouraging. If I start with very small/young stock I
may be dead before the tree is in a bonsai pot. Basically if I want a
finished Bonsai in my lifetime I'll have to buy one.

On Sat, 22 Feb 2003 15:52:33 -0500, Jim Lewis
wrote:

I don't think anyone can answer those questions for you.
However, generally, you don't put a tree in a "bonsai pot" until
you are ready to call it a bonsai and display it -- or at least
do the "finishing" touches on it.

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Old 23-02-2003, 01:15 AM
Marty & Patty Weiser
 
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Default [IBC] Priorities in bonsai design
It also depends upon what size of tree you want. You can start with
small stock, fatten the trunk a bit, cut it back and make a small (30
cm) bonsai in a few years. However, starting with seedlings and making
large (60 cm) bonsai is a long term proposition, particularly if you
want a fat trunk.

One nice short cut it to buy a tree from a regular nursery to get a
reasonably fat trunk and then cut it back severely. It still takes time
to grow it out and create taper, but getting it from a seedling to 5 -
10 cm is often the longest part (at least it sometimes seems that way).
Trees that have had their tops damaged are good candidates since you are
mainly interested in the lower trunk. There may be some bargains this
spring on the US East Coast if there was a bunch of snow damage -
retailers will often let you have the tree for a fraction of the list
price since it take years to grow a nice top for normal landscape sale.

I like to grow trees out in relatively shallow boxes with mesh bottoms.
I make most of mine from 2x6 stock (4 cm by 13 cm finished) and use 1/4"
(0.6 cm) hardware cloth in the bottom. This allows from great moisture
and water flow which also permits heavy fertilization. In addition, I
have placed them on the ground with some fine bark or sand between the
mesh and ground so the roots will grow into the ground. This gives even
faster growth (it is known as the escape technique) and the layer of
fine stuff makes it easy to cut the escaped roots with a shovel to move
the pot.

There is a photo article at
http://iebs.8m.com/martydemo/maple/maple1.html about a fairly large
damaged A. palmatum (Japanese Maple) that I picked up for $25 and
repotted last year into the bottom of 15 cm of a box like the ones I
describe above. This year it gets thread grafted and I plan to airlayer
almost everthing more than 50 cm above the roots.

Marty

-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club ] On Behalf
Of Billy M. Rhodes
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 3:10 PM
To:
Subject: [IBC] Priorities in bonsai design

In a message dated 2/22/2003 5:49:37 PM Eastern Standard Time,
 writes:

his is very discouraging. If I start with very small/young stock I
may be dead before the tree is in a bonsai pot. Basically if I want a
finished Bonsai in my lifetime I'll have to buy one.

Well, this depends on a lot of things. The species, where you
live
and how you care for it. For example a small F. neriifolia. can look
decent
in five years, a black pine or maple is a different story.
Billy on the Florida Space Coast

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********
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--
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+++++

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Old 23-02-2003, 01:27 AM
Carlos P.
 
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Default [IBC] Priorities in bonsai design
In a message dated 2/22/03 5:49:32 PM, writes:

This is very discouraging. If I start with very small/young stock I
may be dead before the tree is in a bonsai pot. Basically if I want a
finished Bonsai in my lifetime I'll have to buy one.

Like Billy said,some species will require more time than others.

What's the problem in buying a "finished" tree?

When I started with Bonsai 3 years ago,I bought about 10 trees..all of them
were far from finished.As I started to learn and aquire more experience and
principally...got a better "eye" to distinguish between what is good material
and what is not.. I started to buy better "unfinished trees".By better I mean
trees that are ahead in development.
That really helped in my learning and made me work even more hard in my far
from finished trees.

Buying a finished tree by a _good_ artist can be a source of inspiration and
learning.My learning process acelerated and improved just by observing how
those Bonsai artists did with their trees,and after that, taking my own
conclusions,sense and personality and applying this knowledge to my
unfinished trees.
Yes,I have some nice finished trees that I bought and I'm proud I
did.Besides,EVERY Bonsai tree stills needs some developing/care..so even
"finished" trees will need constant atention/care if you intend to improve
those trees.

Bonsai is a patient drove hobby and you need to take that in
consideration.There's ways to cut corners,but you need to know what you are
doing.As you learn what is good and what is not,everything starts to get
funnier/easier ! ;-)

I'm a wildlife photographer/art director,and I think Bonsai have a lot in
comon with photography and graphic design .
You NEED to develop your eye.For me,that's my priority.
A photographer without a "trained" eye is a blind photographer(no pum).

good luck and do NOT give up this rewarding hobby.

Regards,
Carlos Pimenta
Miami,FL

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Old 23-02-2003, 02:51 AM
Jim Lewis
 
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Default [IBC] Priorities in bonsai design

I think from Jim's detailed reply I can presume that we're
talking
about a clay pot.

??? Not necessarily. Most of all my "growing-on" trees are in
cut-down plastic pots.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Our life is
frittered away by detail . . . . Simplify! Simplify. -- Henry
David Thoreau - Walden

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Old 23-02-2003, 03:03 AM
Jim Lewis
 
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Default [IBC] Priorities in bonsai design
On Sat, 22 Feb 2003 15:52:33 -0500, Jim Lewis

wrote:

I don't think anyone can answer those questions for you.
However, generally, you don't put a tree in a "bonsai pot"
until
you are ready to call it a bonsai and display it -- or at
least
do the "finishing" touches on it.



This is very discouraging. If I start with very small/young
stock I
may be dead before the tree is in a bonsai pot. Basically if I
want a
finished Bonsai in my lifetime I'll have to buy one.


Goodness! How old ARE you, John? I'm 65 and I start new bonsai
almost every day this time of year. I fully expect to see some
of them turn into a "finished" tree. (And not all of them are
tiny trees, either ;-)

And it all depends on how large a tree you want. If bonsai means
(to you) a 4-foot tree, it'll take longer. If you can be happy
with an 11-12 inch tree, it takes much less time -- especially if
you start with a 2 footer. ;-)

I'm afraid, though, that Bonsai is not an American "instant
gratification" paint-by-numbers art form.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Our life is
frittered away by detail . . . . Simplify! Simplify. -- Henry
David Thoreau - Walden

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