Greetings,

I've seen in several bonsai books and on the net the use of training boxes
for larger specimens of Yamadori etc. I was wondering what would be the best
timber to use for say a 5 year stint as a training box. My main concern
being timber rot and it's effects on the roots of my plants.

I knocked up one box out of dressed (smooth sanded) pine planks I had laying
around and sealed them with clear varnish but am still somewhat concerned
about the planks rotting.

Any tips in regards would be greatly appreciated.

Martin

I use rough sawn tanalised (pressure treated) timber with no ill effects on
the trees. The boxes that I've made have been in service for more than five
years with no sign of rot yet.

Cheers

Kev Bailey
N Wales, UK, Zone 9

From: Martin
Reply-To: Martin
To:
Subject: [IBC] timber training boxes
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:16:19 +1000

Greetings,

I've seen in several bonsai books and on the net the use of training boxes
for larger specimens of Yamadori etc. I was wondering what would be the
best
timber to use for say a 5 year stint as a training box. My main concern
being timber rot and it's effects on the roots of my plants.

I knocked up one box out of dressed (smooth sanded) pine planks I had
laying
around and sealed them with clear varnish but am still somewhat concerned
about the planks rotting.

Any tips in regards would be greatly appreciated.

Martin

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Kev Bailey wrote:

I use rough sawn tanalised (pressure treated) timber with no ill
effects on the trees. The boxes that I've made have been in service
for more than five years with no sign of rot yet.

Cheers

Kev Bailey
N Wales, UK, Zone 9

From: Martin
Reply-To: Martin
To:
Subject: [IBC] timber training boxes
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:16:19 +1000

Greetings,

I've seen in several bonsai books and on the net the use of training
boxes
for larger specimens of Yamadori etc. I was wondering what would be
the best
timber to use for say a 5 year stint as a training box. My main concern
being timber rot and it's effects on the roots of my plants.

I knocked up one box out of dressed (smooth sanded) pine planks I had
laying
around and sealed them with clear varnish but am still somewhat
concerned
about the planks rotting.

Any tips in regards would be greatly appreciated.

Martin

Timely for me, as I was about to get into making a couple myself - I'd
just come to the conclusion that tanalised timber would be best. Thanks,
Kev.

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\f0\b\fs24 \cf0 GordonB
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I have used standard 1" x 4" fir or pine lumber for building training boxes.
I have had a number of these in service for over five years and no problem
with them rotting away. I can detect some rot progressing on the inside
surface on some of them, but they are still good for a few more years.

One of the other guys in our club uses redwood for training boxes, and I
have used that as well. It will last longer than pine or fir. If you have
sealed your box with exterior varnish inside and out it should last for many
years.

Regards,
Roger Snipes
Spokane, WA. Zone 5-ish

----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin"

I've seen in several bonsai books and on the net the use of training boxes
for larger specimens of Yamadori etc. I was wondering what would be the
best
timber to use for say a 5 year stint as a training box. My main concern
being timber rot and it's effects on the roots of my plants.

I knocked up one box out of dressed (smooth sanded) pine planks I had
laying
around and sealed them with clear varnish but am still somewhat concerned
about the planks rotting.

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++++Sponsored, in part, by John Romano++++
************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

I use rough sawn tanalised (pressure treated) timber with no ill effects on
the trees. The boxes that I've made have been in service for more than five
years with no sign of rot yet.

Cheers

Kev Bailey
N Wales, UK, Zone 9

From: Martin
Reply-To: Martin
To:
Subject: [IBC] timber training boxes
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 21:16:19 +1000

Greetings,

I've seen in several bonsai books and on the net the use of training boxes
for larger specimens of Yamadori etc. I was wondering what would be the
best
timber to use for say a 5 year stint as a training box. My main concern
being timber rot and it's effects on the roots of my plants.

I knocked up one box out of dressed (smooth sanded) pine planks I had
laying
around and sealed them with clear varnish but am still somewhat concerned
about the planks rotting.

Any tips in regards would be greatly appreciated.

Martin

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Roger Snipes wrote:

I have used standard 1" x 4" fir or pine lumber for building training
boxes. I have had a number of these in service for over five years and
no problem with them rotting away. I can detect some rot progressing on
the inside surface on some of them, but they are still good for a few
more years.

One of the other guys in our club uses redwood for training boxes, and I
have used that as well. It will last longer than pine or fir. If you
have sealed your box with exterior varnish inside and out it should last
for many years.


And, the fact that the dead wood of the box rots has
absolutely NO correlation with the live roots of a tree
rotting. Apples and oranges.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - When we
see land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to
use it with love and respect - Aldo Leopold - A Sand County
Almanac

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On Oct 14, 2005, at 9:55 AM, Jim Lewis wrote:

snip

And, the fact that the dead wood of the box rots has absolutely NO
correlation with the live roots of a tree rotting. Apples and
oranges.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - When we see land
as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love
and respect - Aldo Leopold - A Sand County Almanac


I have a number of growing boxes that I built out of scrap lumber three
and four years ago. Most have had at least one tree in them. That's
long enough for me.

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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I gave up on boxes many years ago and find the 'papoose style' that was
first created by Dan Robinson as the cheapest and most efficient method of
training on a tree that is field dug. Chicken wire cut to length, landscape
cloth cut to fit, add your growing medium, place tree, tie up tight with
wire and you have a fully contained growing pot with a perfect fit for each
individual tree. You do not have to prune back roots to make it fit, the
chicken wire adapts to the shape.

As time goes by undoing the wire is simple and you can easily remove or add
soil or root prune to any portion of the root ball with out destroying the
integrity of the rest of the root ball or the papoose. Also it is easier to
get the growing medium around the roots and there are no dead spaces under
the root system, by wrapping the wire tight prevents the tree from shaking
and thus prevents small roots from breaking off. Drainage is exceptional and
the papoose last as long as the quality of the landscape cloth used.
One roll of chicken wire, one roll of landscape cloth, medchanics wire will
do about 20 trees depending on size.
I do this sometimes right at the collection site and do not have to worry
about soil falling off or damaging any roots for the trip home.
For what it is worth
Anton

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In article , "Martin" wrote:

I've seen in several bonsai books and on the net the use of training boxes
for larger specimens of Yamadori etc. I was wondering what would be the best
timber to use for say a 5 year stint as a training box. My main concern
being timber rot and it's effects on the roots of my plants.

I knocked up one box out of dressed (smooth sanded) pine planks I had laying
around and sealed them with clear varnish but am still somewhat concerned
about the planks rotting.

Any tips in regards would be greatly appreciated.

Martin

I'd give it a few coats of marine varnish. If it's good enough for boats,
it ought to protect a planter from rot. And I'd wait at least a week
before using it, just to make sure the varnish is fully cured.

Thanks, Anton. This is a very practical idea... one which makes
me ask, "Now why didn't I think of that?!"

Alan Walker
http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org

-----Original Message-----
From: anton nijhuis
I gave up on boxes many years ago and find the 'papoose style'
that was first created by Dan Robinson as the cheapest and most
efficient method of training on a tree that is field dug. Chicken
wire cut to length, landscape cloth cut to fit, add your growing
medium, place tree, tie up tight with wire and you have a fully
contained growing pot with a perfect fit for each individual
tree. You do not have to prune back roots to make it fit, the
chicken wire adapts to the shape.

As time goes by undoing the wire is simple and you can easily
remove or add soil or root prune to any portion of the root ball
with out destroying the integrity of the rest of the root ball or
the papoose. Also it is easier to
get the growing medium around the roots and there are no dead
spaces under the root system, by wrapping the wire tight prevents
the tree from shaking and thus prevents small roots from breaking
off. Drainage is exceptional and the papoose last as long as the
quality of the landscape cloth used.
One roll of chicken wire, one roll of landscape cloth, medchanics
wire will
do about 20 trees depending on size.
I do this sometimes right at the collection site and do not have
to worry
about soil falling off or damaging any roots for the trip home.
For what it is worth
Anton

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Thanks to all for your responses,
I suspected (as Mr. Lewis pointed out) that the type of mould/fungus that
attacks rotting pine would be different to those which attack living roots
of a tree. Could anyone shine some more light on this in addition to the
apples and oranges analogy?.

The marine sealer looks the go...

Thanks again
Martin.



"Wayne C. Morris" wrote in message
...
In article , "Martin" wrote:

I've seen in several bonsai books and on the net the use of training
boxes
for larger specimens of Yamadori etc. I was wondering what would be the
best
timber to use for say a 5 year stint as a training box. My main concern
being timber rot and it's effects on the roots of my plants.

I knocked up one box out of dressed (smooth sanded) pine planks I had
laying
around and sealed them with clear varnish but am still somewhat
concerned
about the planks rotting.

Any tips in regards would be greatly appreciated.

Martin

I'd give it a few coats of marine varnish. If it's good enough for boats,
it ought to protect a planter from rot. And I'd wait at least a week
before using it, just to make sure the varnish is fully cured.

Anton, just one question, what exactly is 'landscape cloth' made from?
Was wondering if it's available in Australia.

Martin

"anton nijhuis" wrote in message
news:013201c5d0e2$1288d1f0$945e51cf@antonpl87zv1hi ...
I gave up on boxes many years ago and find the 'papoose style' that was
first created by Dan Robinson as the cheapest and most efficient method of
training on a tree that is field dug. Chicken wire cut to length,
landscape
cloth cut to fit, add your growing medium, place tree, tie up tight with
wire and you have a fully contained growing pot with a perfect fit for
each
individual tree. You do not have to prune back roots to make it fit, the
chicken wire adapts to the shape.

As time goes by undoing the wire is simple and you can easily remove or
add
soil or root prune to any portion of the root ball with out destroying the
integrity of the rest of the root ball or the papoose. Also it is easier
to
get the growing medium around the roots and there are no dead spaces under
the root system, by wrapping the wire tight prevents the tree from shaking
and thus prevents small roots from breaking off. Drainage is exceptional
and
the papoose last as long as the quality of the landscape cloth used.
One roll of chicken wire, one roll of landscape cloth, medchanics wire
will
do about 20 trees depending on size.
I do this sometimes right at the collection site and do not have to worry
about soil falling off or damaging any roots for the trip home.
For what it is worth
Anton


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****
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****
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Here's an elaboration of "apples" and "oranges", Martin:

Because wood is so important, a great deal of research has gone into
the behavior of fungi that attack it. I (as a plant pathologist)
mostly study fungi that attack living trees (pathogens) rather than
those that attack dead wood (saprophytes). But trees are funny in that
only a thin sheath of tissue is alive at any one time: the leaves,
twigs, feeder roots, and the inner bark and a web of tissue in the
outer rings of bark. The rest of the tree is dead. So in addition to
pathogens, plant pathologists have to deal with "heartrot", which is
the rotting of the dead inner wood of a tree which can weaken it
structurally and cause the tree to collapse and die.

If you had a tree in a wooden training box, and the box had rot fungi,
and your tree had jin and shari, you might worry a little. And since
you probably cut off the tree's taproot in order to fit it in the
training box, you should be aware that the dead wood in the center of
the tree is in direct contact with the soil instead of having a layer
of bark to protect it. You see, wood rotters come in two types: brown
rotters and white rotters. Brown rot fungi can digest cellulose; white
rot fungi can digest lignin. But bark contains suberin, and few fungi
can digest that. This is why you use bark for mulch- it lasts a long
time in contact with the soil. And this is why trees cover themselves
with bark, and why they seal wounds instead of just leaving broken wood
exposed.

So I would not call wood rotters and plant pathogens "apples" and
"oranges", but I'd put them on a continuum from "potentially very
harmful" to "mostly harmless but willing to cause problems under the
right conditions". I'd go ahead and use a wooden training box
(although I like the papoose idea a lot), but I'd keep in mind that
wood rotting fungi are opportunistic.

Nina.

can we use boric acid for getting rid of ants with boric acid, if yes how to
use it?
ovais

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ovais wrote:

can we use boric acid for getting rid of ants with boric acid, if yes
how to use it?
ovais

I would not use boric acid in pots -- just on general
principles; when you use it on ants outside, it will kill
grass it comes in contact with. Grass, generally speaking,
is tougher than a bonsai.

If you have ants in your pot, submerge it in water for a
couple of hours. If they also live UNDER the pot in the
soil, you can use boric acid there, if you like, but it
won't be as thorough as a good dousing with an ant-and-roach
spray or someting like Amdro.

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