Several questions for the group if I may .... learning curve in progress.

Bonsai "soil" .... I would like to try my hand at making my own mix if possible ..

A. I have found several recipes in books and on line ... go with what is "local" type soil for your area and a close match to the trees needs ???

B. Sifted / graded soil .... I'm sure I can locate by mail order a set of "Sifters" to grade out the mix as per all the books I have read so far ...

Is there a brand / type that the group has found that works well and does not cost two arms and a leg ? OR ... I "may" be able to locate the approximate sizes of hardware cloth I need to make my own ... 1/8" .. 1/4" .. 1/2"

C. Is Aquarium gravel good to use in the bottom of the pots ?

OK .. enough for now ... more questions to follow for sure.

In the Spirit of Bonsai,

Gordon in Greensboro

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Gordon Saunders wrote:
Several questions for the group if I may .... learning
curve in progress.

Bonsai "soil" .... I would like to try my hand at making
my own mix if possible ..

A. I have found several recipes in books and on line ...
go with what is "local" type soil for your area and a
close match to the trees needs ???


No. Local "dirt" is not good for bonsai. To start, go with
one of the "standard" recipes. You'll find some in the
Knowledge base of www.internetbonsaiclub.org

B. Sifted / graded soil .... I'm sure I can locate by
mail order a set of "Sifters" to grade out the mix as per
all the books I have read so far ...



Is there a brand / type that the group has found that
works well and does not cost two arms and a leg ? OR ...
I "may" be able to locate the approximate sizes of
hardware cloth I need to make my own ... 1/8" .. 1/4" ..
1/2"

A.M. Leonard and Gardener's Supply both sell a 3-piece,
nested set for about $20. If you buy the same things when
they're called "bonsai sifting screens" they'll cost at
least $40. 1/2" is a bit big.


C. Is Aquarium gravel good to use in the bottom of the
pots ?

Putting a layer of larger gravel on the bottom is no longer
standard practice. The physics of water percolating through
the soil causes it to "pool" at the interface between the
finer soil and the coarser soil.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature
encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Gordon,

Good comments from Jim. If you plan to do larger volumes of soil then
homemade sifters are great because you can make them larger. I like about
12" x 18" by 3" deep (30 x 45 x 8 cm) since this is about as large as I can
handle without killing myself. If you make the wood frames tapered then
they can nest and you can capture the different grades in one pass. 1/2" is
a bit large (I use it to get rid of the big junk), the hard to find 3 wires
to inch hardware cloth is available from McMaster-Carr.

Aquarium gravel would make a good, although expensive, soil component as
long as it is not full of salt. Depending upon the size of pot and type of
tree it might even be a main component. However, you can probably find
lower cost components at the landscape supply yard - fine shredded bark,
crushed lava if they have it, turface, coarse sand, etc.

Marty

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Gordon Saunders wrote:

Several questions for the group if I may .... learning curve in progress.

Bonsai "soil" .... I would like to try my hand at making my own mix if possible ..

A. I have found several recipes in books and on line ... go with what is "local" type soil for your area and a close match to the trees needs ???

AND your climate if is dry damp or mild

Gordon, follow all advise above. Just dont use shredded bark in the bottom of your bonsai pot. It will rot quickly and clot the drainage.
Perlite is a commercial brand aggregate that is easily found in the market and could be a good alternative.
Gene

In a message dated 9/5/2005 10:17:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
writes:

Is Aquarium gravel good to use in the bottom of the pots?



In some of the books it is recommended to layer soil in bonsai pots. With
larger particles toward the bottom and getting smaller going up.
This was probably done to promote good drainage, BUT, we no longer do this
and just use the proper soil (depending upon the species of plant, stage of
development, etc.) for the entire pot,

Billy on the Florida Space Coast

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In a message dated 9/6/2005 4:22:51 AM Central Daylight Time,
writes:

In some of the books it is recommended to layer soil in bonsai pots. With
larger particles toward the bottom and getting smaller going up.
This was probably done to promote good drainage, BUT, we no longer do this
and just use the proper soil (depending upon the species of plant, stage of
development, etc.) for the entire pot,


I find it interesting that the students of a major artist are still taught
this method. And many member of my club swear by putting a drainage layer in
pots. Not trying to start any arguements just an observation.

Bill

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Bill Neff wrote:

In a message dated 9/6/2005 4:22:51 AM Central Daylight Time,
writes:

In some of the books it is recommended to layer soil in bonsai pots. With
larger particles toward the bottom and getting smaller going up.
This was probably done to promote good drainage, BUT, we no longer do this
and just use the proper soil (depending upon the species of plant, stage of
development, etc.) for the entire pot,


I find it interesting that the students of a major artist are still taught
this method. And many member of my club swear by putting a drainage layer in
pots. Not trying to start any arguements just an observation.

Bill

Well, it has worked for "hundreds" of years. We know now
that water flows through much easier if there are NO widely
different soil layers, but it probably doesn't make a lot of
difference in the long run. Roots, the actual flow of water
through the soil, the actual act of planting the tree in the
pot, and other factors probably mix most of the layers
(except perhaps for the worst one -- the large pebbles in
the bottom) anyway.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature
encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson

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On Sep 10, 2005, at 5:10 PM, Bill Neff wrote:


In a message dated 9/6/2005 4:22:51 AM Central Daylight Time,
writes:

I find it interesting that the students of a major artist are still
taught
this method.
Bill

Boon is my teacher. He is certainly "a major artist", and he says to
put a drainage layer in the bottom of our pots. I believe it is
standard practice in Japan.

Sometime I hear or read that layered soils are bad because they will
create "perched water tables". I think every horticultural student
"learns" this. I would never want to buck science (even though that
seems to be a major sport in our country right now), but I would ask
the anti-layerers why layered soils work so well. After all, the best
and healthiest bonsai in the world have layered soils; so, why do they
work?

Actually, I am only mildly curious about it. I didn't layer the soil
for my first couple of decades. Now I do, using Boon's soil recipes, &
my trees are healthier than ever.

Jim

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First - I believe the science behind perched water tables.

Second - I use a drainage layer in my pots.

Method - My drainage layer is composed 1 - 3 layers of 1/4 - 3/8" (6 - 9 mm)
crushed lava with the main function to keep the finer soil mix above from
sifting out through the 1/4" (6 mm) hardware cloth I use to cover the
drainage holes or the bottoms of my grow boxes. My finer soil (1/16" - 1/4"
= 1 - 6 mm) goes on top of this and settles down into the top of the
drainage layer.

Observation - The drainage layer is generally very heavily colonized with
roots, sometimes far more heavily than the rest of the soil. This agrees
with some of the pictures that I see of repotting in Bonsai Today of the
articles translated from Japan.

Hypothesis - Roots grow well in the drainage layer because it is moist, but
not wet. The slightly perched water table supplies the drainage layer with
moisture, but the coarser soil in the drainage layer prevents pooling of
water at the bottom of the pot (I water almost every day).

Conclusion - With my soil mix (lava and bark), climate, types of trees, and
watering schedule the thin drainage layer works. Your results may vary and
will depend upon your soil mix, climate, trees, and watering schedule.

Marty
Spokane, WA

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Of course a perched water table can be a bad thing, but I don't think that
bonsai pots with layered soil end up with enough of a defined layer size
differential to actually create one; I think the layers get somewhat
blended, especially with all the action of working soil in around the roots,
etc. when potting. Therefore, I think that layered soil in a bonsai pot
does no harm.

Many methods are passed along as the way a thing is done because that is the
way it has always been done, and if the way it has always been done seems to
work (or does no harm even if not necessarily beneficial), then there is no
reason not to continue to pass the traditional method along.

Jim, I am curious, you say that now your trees are healthier that ever using
Boon's soil mix and layered soil. Did you also use Boon's mix in your
pre-layering days, and was your treatment of your trees otherwise identical
back then? (Watering & fertilizing regime, etc.) If not, then I don't
think that the improved tree health can necessarily be attributed to the
layering of your soil. It may be that Boon's soil mix is just superior to
your old mix, and your other care methods may have improved.

Marty layers his soil and notices a preponderance of roots in the bottom of
his pots in the drainage layer. I don't layer my soil, and I use a mix
similar to Marty's, i.e. crushed lava rock in the 1/8" to 3/8" range, and I
also notice a preponderance of roots in the bottom of my pots. I think this
is a normal situation because it is always moister there, drainage layer or
not.

My conclusion is that if one uses a coarse, free draining soil mix layering
the soil will probably do no harm, and will also probably be of no
additional benefit.

Regards,
Roger Snipes
Spokane, WA. Zone 5-ish

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Gremel"
Sometime I hear or read that layered soils are bad because they will
create "perched water tables". I think every horticultural student
"learns" this. I would never want to buck science (even though that seems
to be a major sport in our country right now), but I would ask the
anti-layerers why layered soils work so well. After all, the best and
healthiest bonsai in the world have layered soils; so, why do they work?

Actually, I am only mildly curious about it. I didn't layer the soil for
my first couple of decades. Now I do, using Boon's soil recipes, & my
trees are healthier than ever.

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I've also noticed that all of my pots, whether layered or not, have most of
the roots at the bottom. After all, roots do grow downwards so that makes
sense. I don't bother layering (the ones that are layered were givent to me
like that). I do however put a layer of pebbles at the bottom-but that's
because I don't use screens on the drainage holes.
When I dig in the yard here, the soils aren't layered and the trees do just
fine .
Susan marsh

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On Sep 11, 2005, at 9:43 AM, Roger Snipes wrote:

Of course a perched water table can be a bad thing,

Maybe, maybe not for bonsai. I don't think we know the answer to this.
Layering bonsai soil is a tradition used by the very best bonsaists in
the world.

Many methods are passed along as the way a thing is done because that
is the way it has always been done, and if the way it has always been
done seems to work (or does no harm even if not necessarily
beneficial), then there is no reason not to continue to pass the
traditional method along.

It is very appropriate for us to think about, question and experiment
with alternatives to the many bonsai traditions.

But I think we should be cautious about assuming that our ideas are
superior to those of others. Sometimes a practice is correct, even if
the explanation of it is erroneous.

For example, many years ago I read, in an English language version of a
Japanese bonsai book, a description of how to anneal copper wire . It
said to place the wire in a fire to "drive out the water" in the wire.
Well, there was no water in the copper. Maybe it was a translation
error. We could laugh at the silly explanation for annealing, but the
advice, the procedure, was correct. Putting the wire in the fire would
anneal it (Well, it is a little more complicated than that, but copper
is annealed by heating it).

Jim, I am curious, you say that now your trees are healthier that ever
using Boon's soil mix and layered soil.
Boon's mixes are (1) equal parts of akadama, lava rock & pumice for
conifers, and (2) 2 parts akadama, 1 part lava rock & 1 part pumice for
deciduous trees. Boon also adds a little each of decomposed granite and
charcoal. I haven't started to use DG or charcoal, but I probably will.

I resisted using akadama ("It's expensive, I don't need dirt from
Japan!") until Mas Imazumi, my first teacher, told me that everything
grows better in it. So, I started using it. Later I became Boon's
student & adopted his mixes.

Please note that there is no peat moss, leaf mold, bark or other form
of organic material in these mixes. I understand that Boon has clients
throughout the many climate zones of the US using these mixes with
great success.

I have experimented with other ingredients and I will continue to do
so, but I usually have too many distractions to be able to do really
good trials that yield really conclusive results.

Did you also use Boon's mix in your pre-layering days,
no
and was your treatment of your trees otherwise identical back then?
no. I started my nursery 10 years ago. Some things have been very
successful, some abject failures. My practices & procedures have
improved spasmodically - sometimes I learn a lot in a short time,
sometimes my learning is almost imperceptible, but after several years
I realize that, somehow (osmosis?) I know something that I didn't used
to. So, my "treatment" has evolved & we could have endless discussions
about whether there is a good basis for whatever I am doing.
Jim


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Sue Marsh wrote:
I've also noticed that all of my pots, whether layered or not, have most
of the roots at the bottom. After all, roots do grow downwards so that
makes sense. I don't bother layering (the ones that are layered were
givent to me like that). I do however put a layer of pebbles at the
bottom-but that's because I don't use screens on the drainage holes.
When I dig in the yard here, the soils aren't layered and the trees do
just fine .
Susan marsh


Yards and pots are a bit different.

HOWEVER, natural soil is, in fact, layered. The upper
layers are mostly organic, the next layers are mostly
mineral, and the lower layers are _all_ mineral.

As I said earlier, it probably doesn't really matter if you
layer your soil, but it's easier not to. :-)

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - People,
when Columbus discovered this country, it was plum full of
nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you (that) the
berries are just about all gone. -- Uncle Dave Macon, musician

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It is very appropriate for us to think about, question and experiment
with alternatives to the many bonsai traditions.
But I think we should be cautious about assuming that our ideas are
superior to those of others. Sometimes a practice is correct, even if the
explanation of it is erroneous.

Jim, I agree that we should be open to question bonsai traditions and
experiment with alternatives. I don't assume that any of my ideas are
superior, and if thats the way my post came across, it isn't what was meant.

Well, there was no water in the copper. Maybe it was a translation error.
We could laugh at the silly explanation for annealing, but the advice, the
procedure, was correct.

Exactly, some things are done for the wrong reasons, but prouduce desireable
results, and some things are done for stated reasons that have no real
effect, but produce no harm. Soil layering may or may not fall into that
category.

Please note that there is no peat moss, leaf mold, bark or other form of
organic material in these mixes. I understand that Boon has clients
throughout the many climate zones of the US using these mixes with great
success.

I am familiar with Boon's soil mix, and know it to be a good mix. I guess I
am wondering if your trees would do just as well with unlayered Boon's mix
as with layered Boon's mix.

but after several years I realize that, somehow (osmosis?) I know something
that I didn't used to. So, my "treatment" has evolved & we could have
endless discussions about whether there is a good basis for whatever I am
doing.

I agree, and that is one of the fun things about bonsai, experimenting with
old and new procedures and discussing the process and results with fellow
enthusiasts.

Regards,
Roger Snipes
Spokane, WA. Zone 5-ish

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