In article ,
Martin Brown wrote:
On 21/10/2019 17:59, Another John wrote:

Thanks Martin - I thought you were on t something there when I saw the
first picture of pokeweed, with its purple stalks ... but it's not that.
Thank goodness! Sounds like a right nasty plant -- I like this bit from
the Wikipedia entry : "The leaves and stems of very young plants can
both be eaten, but must be cooked, usually boiled three times in fresh
water each time." It always gives me pause for thought, to reflect
that for most of human history, people have eaten (had to eat) whatever
they could find ... and that some poor sods found out the hard way how
their descendants needed to prepare certain foods!

It isn't all that bad and is quite ornamental. I got one spontaneously
appear in my garden when I lived in Belgium. It even set seed so I could
keep on growing it. Not at all invasive and quite a bit less toxic than
some of the other exotics that I like to grow.

Yes - people get uptight about a few poisonous plants, but there are
generally more poisonous ones that they ignore, and they aren't really
much of a risk, anyway. Laburnum is generally ignored, but is one of
the worst, as its seeds look exactly like mung beans.

I did get twitchy when someone brought a small child when I was growing
Gloriosa rothschildiana, though ....


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 22/10/2019 09:39, Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article ,
Martin Brown wrote:
On 21/10/2019 17:59, Another John wrote:

Thanks Martin - I thought you were on t something there when I saw the
first picture of pokeweed, with its purple stalks ... but it's not that.
Thank goodness! Sounds like a right nasty plant -- I like this bit from
the Wikipedia entry : "The leaves and stems of very young plants can
both be eaten, but must be cooked, usually boiled three times in fresh
water each time." It always gives me pause for thought, to reflect
that for most of human history, people have eaten (had to eat) whatever
they could find ... and that some poor sods found out the hard way how
their descendants needed to prepare certain foods!

It isn't all that bad and is quite ornamental. I got one spontaneously
appear in my garden when I lived in Belgium. It even set seed so I could
keep on growing it. Not at all invasive and quite a bit less toxic than
some of the other exotics that I like to grow.

Yes - people get uptight about a few poisonous plants, but there are
generally more poisonous ones that they ignore, and they aren't really
much of a risk, anyway. Laburnum is generally ignored, but is one of
the worst, as its seeds look exactly like mung beans.

I did get twitchy when someone brought a small child when I was growing
Gloriosa rothschildiana, though ....

When I visited the Poison Garden at Alnwick Castle there was one plant
that I couldn't abide being near. Henbane aka Hyoscamus niger. I could
smell the toxin in the air from its flowers and it was unpleasant.
(better than toothache I suppose if you were desperate)

http://www.thepoisongarden.co.uk/ato...amus_niger.htm

At least with Daturas and Brugsmanias the flowers usually smell gorgeous
even if the bruised stems smell terrible.

It had been a bad wet summer so several of the more interesting
semitropical specimens were dead mouldering brown stems. Best visited in
late summer after a long warm spell to see the most developed plants.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

In article ,
Martin Brown wrote:

When I visited the Poison Garden at Alnwick Castle there was one plant
that I couldn't abide being near. Henbane aka Hyoscamus niger. I could
smell the toxin in the air from its flowers and it was unpleasant.
(better than toothache I suppose if you were desperate)

http://www.thepoisongarden.co.uk/ato...amus_niger.htm

At least with Daturas and Brugsmanias the flowers usually smell gorgeous
even if the bruised stems smell terrible.

It had been a bad wet summer so several of the more interesting
semitropical specimens were dead mouldering brown stems. Best visited in
late summer after a long warm spell to see the most developed plants.

Gloriosa doesn't smell significantly, but it is SERIOUSLY poisonous,
much worse than anything that is naturalised in the UK, and I didn't
know if a single leaf or flower could kill a child.

The main UK problem comes from contact poisons getting in eyes or on
sensitive skin, but we have nothing compared to the manchineel.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 22/10/19 12:49, Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article ,
Martin Brown wrote:

When I visited the Poison Garden at Alnwick Castle there was one plant
that I couldn't abide being near. Henbane aka Hyoscamus niger. I could
smell the toxin in the air from its flowers and it was unpleasant.
(better than toothache I suppose if you were desperate)

http://www.thepoisongarden.co.uk/ato...amus_niger.htm

At least with Daturas and Brugsmanias the flowers usually smell gorgeous
even if the bruised stems smell terrible.

It had been a bad wet summer so several of the more interesting
semitropical specimens were dead mouldering brown stems. Best visited in
late summer after a long warm spell to see the most developed plants.

Gloriosa doesn't smell significantly, but it is SERIOUSLY poisonous,
much worse than anything that is naturalised in the UK, and I didn't
know if a single leaf or flower could kill a child.

I've grown it for years, and have never detected any scent. All the
reports of poisoning I've read about have followed ingestion of the
rhizomes. There are many comments about all parts of it being toxic, but
I haven't been able to find details of the levels of colchicine in the
leaves.

I don't understand your comment about it being "much worse than anything
naturalised in the UK". If we try to compare like with like, then surely
we should be comparing it with anything growable in the UK, even in a
tropical house. That opens the field to many very poisonous plants. But
even if limited to those which can grow and survive outside in the UK,
what about Colchicum?! It's exactly the same as far as possible
poisoning is concerned, with the same active principle. We can also
include other plants such as Aconitum, Veratrum, Convallaria, Digitalis,
and others with cardiac glycosides. If we include other classes, we come
to Ricinus and other polypeptide poisons (including Abrus if we return
to tropical plants). So the field is pretty wide. Perhaps the unique
thing about colchicine is that, as far as I am aware, in it's mode of
action it is in a class of its own.

The main UK problem comes from contact poisons getting in eyes or on
sensitive skin, but we have nothing compared to the manchineel.

But that is tropical too. Perhaps the best comparison with something
that /could/ grow in the UK would be the plants which contain urushiol;
those are the North American "Poison" plants - oak, ivy, and sumac. If
you want to consider other very nasty touch-sensitive tropical plants
you needn't look further than Dendrocnide moroides.

--

Jeff

In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote:

Gloriosa doesn't smell significantly, but it is SERIOUSLY poisonous,
much worse than anything that is naturalised in the UK, and I didn't
know if a single leaf or flower could kill a child.

I've grown it for years, and have never detected any scent. All the
reports of poisoning I've read about have followed ingestion of the
rhizomes. There are many comments about all parts of it being toxic, but
I haven't been able to find details of the levels of colchicine in the
leaves.

Nor me, but I was referring to small children (infants) and did NOT
want a death from that cause, or even a sick child. As I said, I didn't
know how toxic the leaves and flowers are.

I don't understand your comment about it being "much worse than anything
naturalised in the UK". If we try to compare like with like, then surely
we should be comparing it with anything growable in the UK, even in a
tropical house. That opens the field to many very poisonous plants. But
even if limited to those which can grow and survive outside in the UK,
what about Colchicum?! It's exactly the same as far as possible
poisoning is concerned, with the same active principle. We can also
include other plants such as Aconitum, Veratrum, Convallaria, Digitalis,
and others with cardiac glycosides. If we include other classes, we come
to Ricinus and other polypeptide poisons (including Abrus if we return
to tropical plants). So the field is pretty wide. Perhaps the unique
thing about colchicine is that, as far as I am aware, in it's mode of
action it is in a class of its own.

My understanding is that, in terms of concentrations, Gloriosa tubers
are significantly worse than those. I could be wrong, but my sources
seemed fairly reliable.

The point is that, allergies and damage to mucous membranes aside,
any plant found 'in the wild' in the UK can be handled and even tasted
without serious risk of death or permanent injury. The same is not
true for tropical plants, including those grown in conservatories,
greenhouses etc.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 22/10/19 16:32, Nick Maclaren wrote:

Nor me, but I was referring to small children (infants) and did NOT
want a death from that cause, or even a sick child. As I said, I didn't
know how toxic the leaves and flowers are.
That's fair enough, and a sensible precaution.

What I don't understand with adults poisoning themselves with Gloriosa,
particularly with the rhizomes, is that where the taste of colchicine is
concerned, it is said to be "very bitter". How anyone could fail to
notice that I find hard to comprehend. In general, bitterness is often a
sign of toxicity and a guide to direct the consumer elsewhere.

--

Jeff

In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote:

What I don't understand with adults poisoning themselves with Gloriosa,
particularly with the rhizomes, is that where the taste of colchicine is
concerned, it is said to be "very bitter". How anyone could fail to
notice that I find hard to comprehend. In general, bitterness is often a
sign of toxicity and a guide to direct the consumer elsewhere.

I believe that most cases are murder, so it would be in something to
disguise the taste.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 22/10/2019 16:32, Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article ,

The point is that, allergies and damage to mucous membranes aside,
any plant found 'in the wild' in the UK can be handled and even tasted
without serious risk of death or permanent injury. The same is not
true for tropical plants, including those grown in conservatories,
greenhouses etc.

I think hemlock (Conium maculatum) might be a bit borderline in this
respect and it is quite common in suitably damp hedgerows in season.
It seems to follow the loathsome oilseed rape around somehow.

Colchicums are also naturalised in places and pretty toxic.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

In article ,
Martin Brown wrote:

The point is that, allergies and damage to mucous membranes aside,
any plant found 'in the wild' in the UK can be handled and even tasted
without serious risk of death or permanent injury. The same is not
true for tropical plants, including those grown in conservatories,
greenhouses etc.

I think hemlock (Conium maculatum) might be a bit borderline in this
respect and it is quite common in suitably damp hedgerows in season.
It seems to follow the loathsome oilseed rape around somehow.

No, though it is claimed to be. I looked it up, and you need more
than a taste to kill yourself.

Colchicums are also naturalised in places and pretty toxic.

I believe the same applies here.

The point is that toxins cost the plant a lot of energy to produce,
so are more evolutionarily effective for tropical plants. Fungi
have a very different kind of metabolism.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 24/10/2019 18:58, Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article ,
Martin Brown wrote:

The point is that, allergies and damage to mucous membranes aside,
any plant found 'in the wild' in the UK can be handled and even tasted
without serious risk of death or permanent injury. The same is not
true for tropical plants, including those grown in conservatories,
greenhouses etc.

I think hemlock (Conium maculatum) might be a bit borderline in this
respect and it is quite common in suitably damp hedgerows in season.
It seems to follow the loathsome oilseed rape around somehow.

No, though it is claimed to be. I looked it up, and you need more
than a taste to kill yourself.

I think that is also true of Amanita Phalloides (aka destroying
angel/death cap) too - snag is it apparently tastes rather good.
LD50 is about half a mushroom.

I have eaten the Amanita Caesarea in Italy and it is excellent if a
little unnerving to eat a safe member of such a toxic class of fungi.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amanita_caesarea

Colchicums are also naturalised in places and pretty toxic.

I believe the same applies here.

Probably although I don't fancy trying it.
Lovely flowers this time of year and trouble free.

The point is that toxins cost the plant a lot of energy to produce,
so are more evolutionarily effective for tropical plants. Fungi
have a very different kind of metabolism.

A good heuristic I was taught in jungles is that milky sap is usually
dangerous and clear sap might well be potable (there are exceptions).
Lettuce is the obvious counterexample of common UK vegetables.

Certainly true that in places where there is serious water stress and or
grazing the plants have evolved astonishingly sophisticated chemical
weapons. Fortunately very few have mastered organofluorine chemistry -
things like gifblaar in the Transvaal and some others in Australia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dichapetalum_cymosum

Of the succulent plants some Tylecodons are wear gloves when handling
and some of the nastier toxic Euphorbias gloves, goggles or face mask.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tylecodon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphorbia_virosa
http://pza.sanbi.org/euphorbia-virosa

The latter is a handsome plant when small and I have grown it in the
past with red new spine pairs and bright green body. Not for novices.

It is slightly surprising that we can safely eat soya given how
disruptive the hormone mimics in it are to rodent reproduction.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...nes-genistein/

Most of the things we associate as interesting tastes and narcotic
effects are actually natural insecticides, fungicides or sunscreens.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 22/10/2019 16:32, Nick Maclaren wrote:
The point is that, allergies and damage to mucous membranes aside,
any plant found 'in the wild' in the UK can be handled and even tasted
without serious risk of death or permanent injury.


https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profile?pid=458

I looked it up because I recall hearing tales of children using the
stems to make blowpipes. The results were not good.

Come to that, belladonna isn't even uncommon...

Andy

In article ,
Vir Campestris wrote:

The point is that, allergies and damage to mucous membranes aside,
any plant found 'in the wild' in the UK can be handled and even tasted
without serious risk of death or permanent injury.

https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profile?pid=458

I looked it up because I recall hearing tales of children using the
stems to make blowpipes. The results were not good.

Come to that, belladonna isn't even uncommon...

I checked up on several of the claims of harm, and they were assigned
to giant hogweed because 'obviously' that was the cause. In some cases,
there was no giant hogweed in the vicinity. I have also cut it down
on a hot summer's day using a sickle, wearing shorts and a short-sleeved
shirt, and had no reaction.

That doesn't mean that it CAN'T cause photosensitising reactions, but
that the hype isn't based on evidence, and it's probably no worse than
many other common garden plants.

And I have been prescribed belladonna ....


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 25/10/19 20:50, Vir Campestris wrote:

Come to that, belladonna isn't even uncommon...

Not in my experience. I used to go on lots of natural history rambles in
Surrey and Sussex, particularly on the Downs, and I think we came
across Deadly NIghtshade on only two occasions in more than 10 years of
walks. In the "Illustrated Flora of Britain and Northern Europe" it is
described as "local", which is defined as "not widespread or continuous
in its distribution but restricted to particular localities". In other
words, if you wanted to see it you had to know where it was.

I doubt that there is much accidental poisoning by it now. It's really
children who might be most likely to suffer by eating the berries, but
how many children visit the countryside now where it /might/ grow?

As part of the pharmacy course I did more than 50 years ago we were
given 2.4 mg atropine (four 0.6 mg tablets) as part of our pharmacology
practical lesson. I was lucky - the effects started within 30 minutes
and had, more or less, abated by the end of the 3 hour session. Others
were less fortunate; the effects had barely started until they were on
their way home, with some feeling distinctly ill on the tube, suffering
from headaches and palpitations as well as hyperthermia (it was always
warm on the tube). Can you imagine elf'n'safety allowing that now?!

--

Jeff

On 25/10/2019 21:48, Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article ,
Vir Campestris wrote:

The point is that, allergies and damage to mucous membranes aside,
any plant found 'in the wild' in the UK can be handled and even tasted
without serious risk of death or permanent injury.

https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profile?pid=458

I looked it up because I recall hearing tales of children using the
stems to make blowpipes. The results were not good.

Come to that, belladonna isn't even uncommon...

I checked up on several of the claims of harm, and they were assigned
to giant hogweed because 'obviously' that was the cause. In some cases,
there was no giant hogweed in the vicinity. I have also cut it down
on a hot summer's day using a sickle, wearing shorts and a short-sleeved
shirt, and had no reaction.

Not everyone is sensitive so a bit like with hyacinths you might or
might not react. I somehow became sensitive to sedum spectabile.

That doesn't mean that it CAN'T cause photosensitising reactions, but
that the hype isn't based on evidence, and it's probably no worse than
many other common garden plants.

I think there were a few high profile serious damage to small childrens
lips events in the 70's that got it demonised. It is an impressive plant
but sets so much seed that it can become very invasive very quickly.

And I have been prescribed belladonna ....

Dose makes the poison.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

In article ,
Martin Brown wrote:

That doesn't mean that it CAN'T cause photosensitising reactions, but
that the hype isn't based on evidence, and it's probably no worse than
many other common garden plants.

I think there were a few high profile serious damage to small childrens
lips events in the 70's that got it demonised. It is an impressive plant
but sets so much seed that it can become very invasive very quickly.

Yes. I believe those incidents, too, but the resulting hysteria has
been completely without justification. I have never seen evidence for
it being seriously invasive, and have looked; it doesn't have more
seed than most umbellifers, they all have a low success rate, and it
requires fairly specific conditions to thrive.

And I have been prescribed belladonna ....

Dose makes the poison.

It made me as high as a kite :-)


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.