Hi there,

Thanks for taking a few mins to look at this!

I have bought my first house which came with a hidious Garage taking up the whole of our garden. In the last few months of 2010 we got rid of this and had some proffesional work down taking away nearly 25 tonnes of rubble and building a retaining wall leaving a 6.3m x 5.5m space. The area left is a slight downward slope and is largly thick, sticky clay and some small rubble. I have attached what the "garden" looked like when we bought the house and a picture this afternoon!

I am brand new to gardening and have done a little research so far but need some advice and reassurance of our plans.

We are currently designing how we want the garden to look like but we will lawn the majoirty of the area so my 2 year old daughter gets maximum play space. I have a few questions concerning laying a lawn and some about trees - if anyone can help I really would apreciate any advice.

In relation to laying the lawn my research suggests i need to get top soil and start thinking of sewing grass in the Spring. Using an online topsoil calculator it seems i need approx 5 tonnes of topsoil meaning a depth of 6 inches.

1. Is there any particular type of top soil recommended to use on top of clay? I have a limited budget so does it really matter what top soil I use?

2. A few areas of the current clay base collects pools of water when it rains heavily. How should I deal with these before laying soil?

3. Any idea of how much 5 tonnes of top soil costs or does it depend on quality?

4. When should I really think of starting to lay the top soil and start sewing grass seeds?

5. Is there anything I could use to break up the sticky, horrible clay?

6. Whats the minimum amount of topsoil I should consider to cover the clay. Some areas may be 6 inches but I think some might be as low as 4?

7. Finally, at the back of the garden we would like to plant a row of confier/firn style trees in front of the fence. Any ideas what sort of firns grow well in clay?

I know thats plenty of questions but any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Rich

"Richard William" wrote

I have bought my first house which came with a hidious Garage taking up
the whole of our garden. In the last few months of 2010 we got rid of
this and had some proffesional work down taking away nearly 25 tonnes of
rubble and building a retaining wall leaving a 6.3m x 5.5m space. The
area left is a slight downward slope and is largly thick, sticky clay
and some small rubble. I have attached what the "garden" looked like
when we bought the house and a picture this afternoon!

I am brand new to gardening and have done a little research so far but
need some advice and reassurance of our plans.

We are currently designing how we want the garden to look like but we
will lawn the majoirty of the area so my 2 year old daughter gets
maximum play space. I have a few questions concerning laying a lawn and
some about trees - if anyone can help I really would apreciate any
advice.

In relation to laying the lawn my research suggests i need to get top
soil and start thinking of sewing grass in the Spring. Using an online
topsoil calculator it seems i need approx 5 tonnes of topsoil meaning a
depth of 6 inches.

1. Is there any particular type of top soil recommended to use on top of
clay? I have a limited budget so does it really matter what top soil I
use?

I doubt you need any topsoil, if it's clay you have then the addition of
sand in the top few inches will improve drainage so you get a good lawn.

2. A few areas of the current clay base collects pools of water when it
rains heavily. How should I deal with these before laying soil?

It's obviously compacted so dig it, as above.

3. Any idea of how much 5 tonnes of top soil costs or does it depend on
quality?

4. When should I really think of starting to lay the top soil and start
sewing grass seeds?

You don't give us a clue about where you are but anytime in the spring when
it's beginning to warm up a bit will be OK.

5. Is there anything I could use to break up the sticky, horrible clay?

Sand and a good rotovator (you can hire them)

6. Whats the minimum amount of topsoil I should consider to cover the
clay. Some areas may be 6 inches but I think some might be as low as 4?

7. Finally, at the back of the garden we would like to plant a row of
confier/firn style trees in front of the fence. Any ideas what sort of
firns grow well in clay?

Don't under any circumstances plant any conifers in such a small garden with
children about. A trellis with climbing plants would save considerably on
space and no nasty hard dried leaves to stick in little feet and hands.

I know thats plenty of questions but any help would be greatly
appreciated.

Just my thoughts.

--
Regards
Bob Hobden
W.of London. UK

On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 13:44:18 +0000, Richard William
wrote:


Hi there,

Thanks for taking a few mins to look at this!

I have bought my first house which came with a hidious Garage taking up
the whole of our garden. In the last few months of 2010 we got rid of
this and had some proffesional work down taking away nearly 25 tonnes of
rubble and building a retaining wall leaving a 6.3m x 5.5m space. The
area left is a slight downward slope and is largly thick, sticky clay
and some small rubble. I have attached what the "garden" looked like
when we bought the house and a picture this afternoon!

I am brand new to gardening and have done a little research so far but
need some advice and reassurance of our plans.

We are currently designing how we want the garden to look like but we
will lawn the majoirty of the area so my 2 year old daughter gets
maximum play space. I have a few questions concerning laying a lawn and
some about trees - if anyone can help I really would apreciate any
advice.

In relation to laying the lawn my research suggests i need to get top
soil and start thinking of sewing grass in the Spring. Using an online
topsoil calculator it seems i need approx 5 tonnes of topsoil meaning a
depth of 6 inches.

1. Is there any particular type of top soil recommended to use on top of
clay? I have a limited budget so does it really matter what top soil I
use?

2. A few areas of the current clay base collects pools of water when it
rains heavily. How should I deal with these before laying soil?

3. Any idea of how much 5 tonnes of top soil costs or does it depend on
quality?

4. When should I really think of starting to lay the top soil and start
sewing grass seeds?

5. Is there anything I could use to break up the sticky, horrible clay?

6. Whats the minimum amount of topsoil I should consider to cover the
clay. Some areas may be 6 inches but I think some might be as low as 4?

7. Finally, at the back of the garden we would like to plant a row of
confier/firn style trees in front of the fence. Any ideas what sort of
firns grow well in clay?

That doesn't really look like very nasty clay in the photo: maybe it's
just badly compressed? And even if it is sticky, I don't think you
need to bring in expensive topsoil. Instead, you could break it up
with a fork and rake it flat where you want a lawn. You might dig in a
few bags of council compost (if your council offers it) or the
contents of the cheapest growbags you can find -- rubbish growbags
sold off cheap because they're last year's stock would do very nicely.

If simply opening up the soil texture doesn't deal with the puddling,
you may find that paving slabs with flower beds around them would be
cheaper than trying to drain. Hell of a lot less messy, too. I don't
honestly think a few inches of topsoil will deal with a serious lack
of drainage.

Topsoil and turf have entered people's minds because of the silly
garden makeover programmes on TV: they're rarely needed in real life.
And those fences will rot from the bottom if you heap up new soil
against them.

You can sow grass seed almost any time, but if you prepare the bed
now, and then level it down again in a month (this is advisable),
you'll be into March: a good time for seeds. But a seed-grown lawn
won't be ready to play on for months.

Janet is utterly totally right about the conifers: I really wouldn't.
They ruin a small garden, and usually infuriate neighbours. You could
top the back fence off with a strip of trellis, which always looks
stylish, and grow some nice climbers -- PLEASE, NO IVY! It looks
great, but I learned my lesson the hard way: it'll wreck your fence. A
grape vine is always fun: "Brant" has good autumn colour and little
bunches of currant-sized grapes, and is happy facing north -- you've
got a wider choice if your fence faces southish. There are some
evergreen climbers, too.

I do hope you enjoy it: starting a garden from scratch can be great
fun, though I know it must be a bit daunting the first time.
[...]

--
Mike.

In message , Mike Lyle
writes
On Tue, 25 Jan 2011 13:44:18 +0000, Richard William
wrote:


Hi there,

Thanks for taking a few mins to look at this!

I have bought my first house which came with a hidious Garage taking up
the whole of our garden. In the last few months of 2010 we got rid of
this and had some proffesional work down taking away nearly 25 tonnes of
rubble and building a retaining wall leaving a 6.3m x 5.5m space. The
area left is a slight downward slope and is largly thick, sticky clay
and some small rubble. I have attached what the "garden" looked like
when we bought the house and a picture this afternoon!

I am brand new to gardening and have done a little research so far but
need some advice and reassurance of our plans.

We are currently designing how we want the garden to look like but we
will lawn the majoirty of the area so my 2 year old daughter gets
maximum play space. I have a few questions concerning laying a lawn and
some about trees - if anyone can help I really would apreciate any
advice.

In relation to laying the lawn my research suggests i need to get top
soil and start thinking of sewing grass in the Spring. Using an online
topsoil calculator it seems i need approx 5 tonnes of topsoil meaning a
depth of 6 inches.

snip.


That doesn't really look like very nasty clay in the photo: maybe it's
just badly compressed?

No it doesn't (we had a very heavy clay soil in our old house - dig down
a spade or two and you got solid clay). but with what was there before
and the removal works have probably left it in a bad way.

And even if it is sticky, I don't think you
need to bring in expensive topsoil. Instead, you could break it up
with a fork and rake it flat where you want a lawn. You might dig in a
few bags of council compost (if your council offers it) or the
contents of the cheapest growbags you can find -- rubbish growbags
sold off cheap because they're last year's stock would do very nicely.


Yup, maybe dig/rotovate in some sharp sand/fine gravel?

If simply opening up the soil texture doesn't deal with the puddling,
you may find that paving slabs with flower beds around them would be
cheaper than trying to drain. Hell of a lot less messy, too. I don't
honestly think a few inches of topsoil will deal with a serious lack
of drainage.

Re the drainage. From the photos it looks like the house is lower than
the garden, by the retaining wall. I'm wondering if there is any sort of
drainage on that side of the house? If so, possibly it could be arranged
to put a pipe or two through the wall to give some drainage to the
garden, if it turned out to be a problem in the future? without going
to expense/hassle of putting in land drains.

You can sow grass seed almost any time, but if you prepare the bed
now, and then level it down again in a month (this is advisable),
you'll be into March: a good time for seeds. But a seed-grown lawn
won't be ready to play on for months.


Quite, i'd probbaly go for turf in this situation if I could afford it.
--
Chris French

hi there,

many thanks for all your advice. It really has given some food for thought. Its interesting what has been said about not to worry too uch about expensive top soil and maybe consider turf. I have seen turf everytime I walk into a B and Q - do u think this kind of stuff can be laid right onto this clay?

I live in Bristol by the way. Your right, the house is lower than the garden. the patio at the back of the house is a gradual incline to the back wall and there is a drain there. You may see in the photo their is some drainage pipes in the retaining wall but as noted the clay is so compact this could be a reason why some areas don't drain at all. We have seen all the winter rain on the garden space and there are only 3 pockets it seems which hold water puddles so hopefully thats encouraging when i start braking it up?

Couple more questions then!! Once broken up a little could I simple lay turf or maybe get a little manure/compost and sand and then lay? Any idea how much turf might cost to lay a garden that size. Finally, when I mentioned firns at the back i was kind of thinking something like in the link below...but I don't know how high/wide/fat they grow!!

10" Wilma GoldCrest - Other hedging - 10" Wilma ( GoldCrest ) - Evergreen hedging conifers for sale

Many thanks again for all advice provided...it really is a massive help towards planning the garden!

Rich

"Janet" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...

Finally, when I
mentioned firns at the back i was kind of thinking something like in the
link below...but I don't know how high/wide/fat they grow!!

But we do :-) This is one of the commonest, worst mistakes of
beginner gardeners. It can blight their property; and more importantly,
their neighbours' property, causing rows and legal problems.

'10\" Wilma GoldCrest - Other hedging - 10\" Wilma ( GoldCrest ) -
Evergreen hedging conifers for sale'
(http://tinyurl.com/655jv3b)

Here's another tip; never buy from a supplier that provides such
inadequate and misleading descriptions as the above. Either, they are
totally ignorant, or just plain dishonest.

http://www.evergreenhedging.co.uk/goldcrest-wilma.htm

" Cupressus macrocarpa Goldscrest Wilma

Goldrest Wilma is one of the most attractive golden-foliage columnar
conifers. Bright golden-yellow foliage. Any free-draining soil in sun or
partial shade. Rate of growth up to 60cm per year. Can be used for
hedging but doesn't trim quite as well as leylandii. If used for
hedging, plant 60-90cm apart. Can be trimmed to keep at the required
height. Ultimate height left untrimmed 10m (30ft). Ultimate width 2-3m
(6-9ft)."

Translation: this is a garish fast-growing tree which resents
being controlled and will soon fill up and outgrow your small garden.


Janet.




Just taken a couple of photos to show the size of a Leylandii.

This one is about 10 years old, maybe a little less and requires contractors
to trim a couple of times a year

http://www.myalbum.com/Album-AYZGNMW...-of-Other.html

Mike

--

....................................
Don't take life too seriously, you'll never get out alive
....................................

Janet - i liked your translation !! and thanks for the picure mike. As u can tell Im very novice to this all. I guess that firn type plant i liked the bright colours and looks quite tasteful....but advice taken!!

really appreciate the advice on the turf. thats really helpful. i've done some research and cost doesnt look too bad and as u say will be very quick compared to growing from scratch.

I guess if i turn the clay and let its settle and do it again after a month would a sprinkling of freash top soil be ok and then turf...or could i turf straight on the clay. its drying up a lot at last and it is quite gravelly/stoney as well with the clay.

thanks again for all you help !

You will probably find it easier to find what you want to buy if you know the difference between ferns and conifers, as they're listed in different places in catalogues and kept in different places in garden centres.

Ferns are basically a bundle of fronds, often about two foot long, usually (but not always) coming up from a central point. They are basically plants rather than trees ("tree ferns" notwithstanding)

Conifers are trees, from miniature ones up to 70ft or so, but they all have a central trunk with branches coming out from the trunk from which more-or-less needle like leaves grow.

But for screening your fence you probably don't want either.

I'd suggest you do something temporary rather than decide on a permanent solution now. For example, you could plant some sweet peas or runner beans.

On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 20:52:50 +0000, Richard William
wrote:


Janet - i liked your translation !! and thanks for the picure mike. As u
can tell Im very novice to this all. I guess that firn type plant i
liked the bright colours and looks quite tasteful....but advice taken!!

really appreciate the advice on the turf. thats really helpful. i've
done some research and cost doesnt look too bad and as u say will be
very quick compared to growing from scratch.

I guess if i turn the clay and let its settle and do it again after a
month would a sprinkling of freash top soil be ok and then turf...or
could i turf straight on the clay. its drying up a lot at last and it is
quite gravelly/stoney as well with the clay.

I'd still rake in some compost or growbag stuff rather than more
expensive topsoil, which will contain clay anyway. Small stones won't
matter too much. Good idea to rake in some growmore fertiliser just
before laying turf. Don't let B&Q sell you turf that's begun to dry
out or go yellow: the staff are usually helpful, and they probably
have a good leaflet, too. If necessary, ask when their next delivery
is so you can pounce on it while it's fresh.

--
Mike.

Hi Bob

I do agree that your area doesnt loo like heavy clay. A few puddles at this time of the year is to be expected

You should try to find a sandy loam topsoil to lay turf on or if you plan to seed then use a topsoil/compost mix.

Buy off a good local supplier and the topsoil should cost you around £40per ton. Make sure the topsoil is not reclaimed as it is likely it will be mixed with subsoil.

If you want to seed, you will have to wait untill the end of March but i would recommend turf as it won't cost allot for 35sq Meters(about £100-£120.00 for a good) try Fresh Turf Suppliers - Online. Next day lawn turf suppliers

We are cutting turf every day and you can lay as soon as you like.

I would suggest that 5 tons of sandy loam topsoil will only give you 4.5 inches of depth.

Topsoil/compost mix will be less dense.

Hi there,

I would like to say thanks to everyone who has helped me with my garden so far! Phase 1 was done today - I turned over all the compacted clay and got rid of the larger hardcore - 20 bags of the stuff! I have been left with a very sticky stony clay. Some areas were very small areas were very wet but on the whole the garden was quite dry. I have uploaded a couple more pics of the garden as it is now!

I have now decided to have a two level garden so in the centre i will put down some railway sleepers to divide the height. This (being advised by a mate!!) will add some depth and also I can have two flat surfaces instead of a gradual incline.

Anyway, now I have turned all the clay I just need a little advice on step 2 to have a nice lawn. From all the advice given I think the way forward is a layer of sand that i rake into the clay (hopefully when is a little dryer!), then maybe some cheap compost and then turf. It seems I shouldnt worry about top soil from the advice given. My next question is should I leave the turned over clay a few weeks before putting sand/manure on? Or should I sift the sand through now? The full garden is 5 x 6 metres approx so I presume we are talking tons of sand not bags?

So far so good? Again thanks for all the help so far and any further advice on my prject much appreciated!

PS - Through your sound advice I have decided against Ferns by the fence.....someone has suggested bamboo?!?!

On Fri, 4 Mar 2011 19:32:32 +0000, Richard William
wrote:


Hi there,

I would like to say thanks to everyone who has helped me with my garden
so far! Phase 1 was done today - I turned over all the compacted clay
and got rid of the larger hardcore - 20 bags of the stuff! I have been
left with a very sticky stony clay. Some areas were very small areas
were very wet but on the whole the garden was quite dry. I have uploaded
a couple more pics of the garden as it is now!

I have now decided to have a two level garden so in the centre i will
put down some railway sleepers to divide the height. This (being advised
by a mate!!) will add some depth and also I can have two flat surfaces
instead of a gradual incline.

Anyway, now I have turned all the clay I just need a little advice on
step 2 to have a nice lawn. From all the advice given I think the way
forward is a layer of sand that i rake into the clay (hopefully when is
a little dryer!), then maybe some cheap compost and then turf. It seems
I shouldnt worry about top soil from the advice given. My next question
is should I leave the turned over clay a few weeks before putting
sand/manure on? Or should I sift the sand through now? The full garden
is 5 x 6 metres approx so I presume we are talking tons of sand not
bags?

So far so good? Again thanks for all the help so far and any further
advice on my prject much appreciated!

PS - Through your sound advice I have decided against Ferns by the
fence.....someone has suggested bamboo?!?!

You've done some digging there mate! Going through your plans:

The two level idea looks fine to the right and to the back of your
garden but the fence on the left might be a problem if the soil level
is higher than (what I think is) the concrete under the wood - if the
soil is higher than the bottom of the wood you're asking for trouble
as the fence will rot from the bottom up within a year. If you want to
raise the soil level above the bottom of the featherboards then I'd
suggest that you get some gravel boards and fix them either to the
concrete under the fence in some way or to some posts knocked into the
ground.

As to laying the lawn, don't use compost, however cheap, unless you're
going to dig it in! Simply laid on the surface, it will compress and
leave you with an uneven lawn very quickly. It will also tend to
waterlog and you'll have patches of slimy green mush in your lawn.

I'd suggest that you grit your teeth and take your time. Let the soil
dry out and then don your wellies and "do the heel" back and forth
over the soil. This means walk on your heels and is intended to break
up the large clumps of soil. Then rake the surface and if you've still
got large clumps, heel and rake again. Sounds a pain but preparation
is the key. The effort put in before will pay dividends, particularly
if you're going for turf rather than seeding the lawn.

By all means dig in compost, coarse sand or grit (from the pics I
think your soil needsa lot of it!), spread some bonemeal over the
surface and fork that in. Aim for a fine, level surface. If you can't
achieve that with the soil you've got, I'd mention that I've had
excellent results from a mix of 2 parts topsoil to 1 part sharp sand
spread over the ground at about half an inch thick, as long as what's
under it has lots of grit dug in to assist drainage.

If you get all this done in the next 3-4 weeks, you're in seed sowing
season. Seed's a lot cheaper than turf and the money you save on turf
could be used to buy more sand/grit to improve the soil. Think about
it. March is an ideal time for sowing lawn seed.

If, though, you do go for turf, don't just walk into a garden centre
or B&Q type place and buy what's on display. Order the turf so you get
it fresh.

I often plug this guy but I'd suggest that you will benefit from
forking out £8 to get a copy of The Lawn Expert by D G Hessayon. That
book is an easy read but very informative and gives a lot more detail
than you'll ever get from this newsgroup (as even longwinded people
like me stop when the top of a post starts to scroll off the display!)

And as to bamboo, choose your variety carefully! A lot of bamboos
spread like wildfire!

Cheers
Jake

Ferns by the fence would be no problem!

What I think you've decided against is conifers. The botanical difference between ferns and conifers is greater than the difference between trying to make your lawn out of roses instead of grass!

Hi Jake,

RE - What does topsoil mean!?!??!

Thats some really good advice there. The more I look into it the more it is about the preperation! I see your point about the gravel board...I have that in mind and won't be getting to the fence level....hopefully. Also, thats really handy advice about heeling

.I have started getting some quotes for sand and am thinking of getting 1.5 tons which I'm led to believe will cover 1 inch over 28m2 (actual measurements now!) I will then mix this in with the clay and as much rotten manure as I can get.

I think the overall bit I am getting confused about is the word "topsoil". I may be incorrect here but by turning the clay, sifting in sand and manure and breaking it up I am then creating my topsoil to lay turf on? Do I have this right now? Or once I have done all the above do I then have to get in some actual "topsoil".

I did one day turning that clay over this weekend. That was 3 days ago and I'm still broken!

Thanks again

Rich

Bit of an update !

I've now turned over all my clay in the garden and got rid of a lot of remaining large stones - 30 bags so far!! The weather has been pretty good and majority of clay crumbles in my hands! I have posted some pics to get an idea of the consistency of the clay.....its mainly crumbly and dry for 2-4 inchs and then is pretty sludgy again. As you can see we now have 2 bags of horse manure - unfortunatly there was some miscommunication and instead of being well rotten its as fresh as can be! I have laid a couple of bags - full of worms I might add. My thoughts are to mix this in with the clay to break it up a bit or maybe just lay it on top? I'm undecided about getting sand in now so would be appreciate any thoughts on this. Once I've turned over the clay a few more times mixed in with the horse manure do you think turf can be put straight on or maybe a couple of inches of top soil? I have been advised by a friend I must get some top soil down but I don't think the clay looks too bad now?

Any further ideas much appreciated!